Smart Justice
Smart Justice covers the pursuit of better outcomes on justice system issues, including incarceration, foster care, and juvenile justice. The podcast is produced by Restore Hope.
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Smart Justice
Locked in the System: A Call for Solutions
Imagine being 15 years old, handcuffed, and sitting in a detention cell with no idea what comes next. For Emma (not her real name), this became her reality—not once, but eight times. Her journey from childhood trauma through addiction and into the juvenile justice system reveals how quickly vulnerable youth can spiral when their basic needs go unmet.
"You don't know how you're going to respond to somebody spitting in your face until somebody spits in your face," says Charles Parkins, reflecting on what detention staff sometimes encounter. As program director at the Arkansas Juvenile Assessment and Treatment Center, Parkins has spent nearly three decades wrestling with a profound question: How do we help troubled kids without causing more harm?
This episode explores juvenile detention facilities, where staffing shortages and solitary confinement can create environments that might worsen the very problems they aim to solve. We hear from Brooke Digby, Arkansas's juvenile ombudsman, who advocates for therapeutic approaches over punishment, especially recognizing that for many youth, criminal behavior stems from survival instincts in impossible circumstances.
What emerges is a call for rethinking—prevention over detention when possible, community support over isolation, and investing in the adults who shape children's lives. As Parkins puts it, "This is a social problem, not a criminal justice problem." The solution lies in building stronger support systems for families before crises occur.
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Executive Director of Restore Hope Paul Chapman hosts this podcast. Executive producer is Karen Tricot Steward. Videography and production by Ti King.
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You don't know how you're going to respond to somebody spitting in your face until somebody spits in your face.
Speaker 2:It was my first time in jail. The water was cold. There was a toilet in my room. I didn't know what to do.
Speaker 3:Is it right? Absolutely not, but it's survival for these kids.
Speaker 4:Crime and punishment are hot topics, but are there solutions? We're hearing about the best we can do. What if there's a smarter way to approach justice, one that delivers better return on investment? I look at it like about every nine beds occupied for a year, that's around a million dollars, strengthens, law enforcement and courts I get fired up about that.
Speaker 5:I'm excited about the potential that we have to really do something that's going to change generations to come.
Speaker 4:And connects families in crisis with the resources they need to end cycles of crime.
Speaker 6:Having that support in place. I wouldn't be here without it.
Speaker 4:This isn't just a theory. We're covering real, evidence-based solutions that are improving our communities. Welcome to Smart Justice. This is Season 4, juvenile Justice. Emma is a teen who's been locked up eight times in her life. Emma isn't her real name. We're using it to protect her privacy. When we met her, she was in a facility near Alexander, arkansas. We wanted to know her story.
Speaker 2:You want to hear like the whole story. Basically boom. This is what happened. I was born. I was a little baby. I was living with my mom and my dad.
Speaker 4:From a young age, Emma's life was marked by turbulence. Her parents struggled with drug use and she was removed from the home. When she was just a couple of months old, she was first placed with an aunt, but the arrangement was short-lived. By the time she was 18 months old, she was living with her grandmother in a rather chaotic household.
Speaker 2:There'd just be a lot of fighting, like fighting all the time, and I'd just be like okay, I don't really know what to do. I'm a kid, so I'm going to stay in a kid's place.
Speaker 4:Her mom came around every now and then.
Speaker 2:My mom would just come in and out the house like drunk high different boyfriends.
Speaker 4:But there was one person who made her feel seen her older brother.
Speaker 2:My brother's like he'd have to take care of me like all the time, and I really started like getting close to him. So I had a bond with him at this point. So I just grew up with my brother.
Speaker 4:When she entered the fifth grade, she lost the motivation to go to school.
Speaker 2:I just started just not going. I just to go to school. I just started just not going. I was basically like just chilling.
Speaker 4:By the time she reached seventh grade, her school recognized she was struggling and offered some accommodations to encourage her to attend. But she battled anxiety.
Speaker 2:So they basically like let me leave 10 minutes before the class ended so I could make it to my next class before like all the people started like coming out. Could make it to my next class before like all the people started like coming out, because I had a really bad thing with like people Like if there's a lot of people I can't do it Like I don't know it, just like it messes with me.
Speaker 4:But the overwhelm didn't go away. She began using pills to cope and eventually stopped going to school in person altogether. Even though she was now enrolled in online classes, she rarely logged in. She also developed an addiction to alcohol. She was drinking a lot.
Speaker 2:So my brother, like he started falling heavily into like selling drugs and like the streets and stuff like that. So I don't know, I just wanted to be like him. I guess I remember it was like my 12th birthday. We was all like in like a hotel party, I guess, and I started doing drugs with him and stuff. And then I remember like I was going like a whole binge like that whole week and then like three days later I was sitting there and then basically we was all sitting at the house. My mom, she got mad or something like that. The police got called, she went in the backyard, she locked herself in this like shed.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to get out the house, because I'm not trying to go to jail. I'm high, I'm not trying to go to jail, I'm only like 13, 12. I don't want to go to jail. So I'm like I can just run out the back door so I get my stuff, I take off, running out the back door, I go down the street to our neighbor's house and then I'm sitting there and then they basically like they all looking for me and like I'm I'm not going, I'm not coming out the house, I don't care, I'm not coming. And then, like I got a text on my phone. It was like my brother just got locked up and I was like I was thinking like, oh, this ain't nothing, he's just gonna get out a couple days. So, because it's just normal, like that was a cycle.
Speaker 2:When they found my mom, I was like I might as well just face it. Like you know, I'm saying I'm not gonna just let my mom go without me doing nothing. I went outside I didn't go to jail this time, but like they put me in like a mental hospital because of my behaviors or something like that. So I was like, okay, I got out of the mental hospital or behavioral hospital, whatever you want to call it. I got out and then I started like I wasn't like falling heavily into like the streets or nothing I don't want to say it yet, but like I was just like I was starting to make new friends and my brother wasn't there so I had to find someone to get my drugs. So I just started talking to my brother's people and then I made new people.
Speaker 4:When she was 14, everything spiraled out of control and on this particular day it landed her in jail for the first time. It all started when Emma got a call from a friend's mom. Her son was in trouble. She asked Emma to go get him before the police got involved.
Speaker 2:We're going to pick him up and we get there and like dude, like he like off the walls, like he going through it, like mouth jittering and stuff, like he messing with his teeth.
Speaker 4:I'm like I don't know what to do and screaming in her face. But Emma managed to get him back to her grandmother's house. Overwhelmed by everything she had been going through. Her anger boiled over. She started punching TVs, unable to contain the storm building inside of her.
Speaker 2:I punched all the TVs in my house and I broke them. And then I was like I'm not going to go to jail, I don't care, I'm not going to go to jail. So I'm taking them out the back door, because we've got cameras in the front. So I'm trying to take them out the back door, put them in the trunk so I could hide them. So I'm like I'm taking them, I'm putting them in the trunk and then, like there's this like city mall, it's like right down the street from my house and there's a bunch of trash cans in the back. We just started throwing them in trash cans. And then, like my grandma, she came back, she called the police and she was like I don't know what happened on my tv, so I'm playing it off. I like I don't know what happened to all my TVs, I'm playing it off. I'm like I don't know what happened to them either. Someone came in here and stole them and then she mad, she's so mad Like she was mad.
Speaker 4:When the police arrived, they tried to get the truth out of her, but she wouldn't talk and her grandmother grew more and more angry and more and more suspicious of Emma. She started to tell the police about all of Emma's bad behavior.
Speaker 2:She pointed out all the alcohol bottles in my room. She was like this is what I'm talking about. You never understand anything.
Speaker 4:You just want to be like, you're just like your family and this and this and that the officer gave Emma a final warning If police were called to the house again, she would be going to jail. She and her friends then went to sleep and when she woke up, a craving hit. She needed drugs to help with the anxiety she was feeling.
Speaker 2:I stole some pills out of my grandma's purse. My grandma woke up, she caught me she, she like she walking down the hallway. She pulled, like she pulled me. She was trying to get them out of my hand. I almost got mad. I got real mad and I picked up the scissors and I opened them and I punched her two times. She started bleeding everywhere and then I'm like I'm not going to go to jail, bro, I can't go to jail. I'm like I can't go to jail man. So I keep saying this over and over in my mind I'm like I can't go to jail man. So I'm just keep saying this over and over in my mind. I'm screaming my homeboys, they waking up, they just sitting there and they're like you're going to jail. I'm like I'm not going to jail and I'm trying to get all my stuff, but at the same time, like I don't care if she made me mad or not, that's still my people at the end of the day.
Speaker 2:So like I wasn't really trying to leave her because I wanted to make sure she was high, like I didn't want to, like you know, throw her or nothing, but I didn't want to go to jail. So like she was on the phone. She was trying to call the cops. I threw the phone down, I broke it. So I'm trying to walk out the front door and a knock on the window. I'm like, oh my god. I'm thinking like it's just like somebody, I don't know who, I thought it was, but I opened the blind. It's, it's the police. So I'm like, oh lord, and I'm like I'm not the type of person like if the police there, I'm not even gonna run like there ain't no point, because then they still gonna get cut. So I just opened the door and I was like I stabbed her and then put me in handcuffs.
Speaker 2:So so I'm looking down. You know like a lot of stuff was happening. It was moving fast. So I'm looking down my whole shirt like it's just covered in blood. I'm like ain't no way this all hurt blood. And then, like I'm trying to like, I'm trying to make sure I'm straight. And then my finger was like split open, like split open. But at the time I I was hard-headed, so I didn't really want to like, I didn't really want to go to hospital or nothing. So I was just like I'm okay, just take me. As soon as I got to the detention center. Like for the longest I was mad. I was so mad Like I don't think I was like mad at anyone but myself like because like why would I do that? Like you know what I'm saying Like why would I do that to someone I love, like that just don't make no sense. But I really feel like the drugs they really like had a big part.
Speaker 4:When she got to the detention center she was told she could make a phone call, but Emma didn't feel like she even had anyone to call.
Speaker 2:I remember the first day, first day I'm sitting there, I'm just crying Like mind you, I ain't cried in like a year. I'm just crying Like mind you, I ain't cried in like a year. I'm just crying like real-life boo-hoo, crying Like this is my first time in jail, so I really ain't know what to do. The water was cold, there was a toilet in my room, I ain't know what. I ain't know what to do, like. But I mean I wasn't scared or nothing. Like there was nothing to be scared for, really.
Speaker 2:But I remember like I would just like wake up in the middle of the night and be like no, I'm not doing this, I'm not doing this, I just got tired of being there. So I told the guard I was going to kill myself, and then they sent me to another mental hospital. So I'm at the mental hospital and then they're like okay, there's nothing wrong with you. Like there's nothing wrong with you. So they let me go. After a couple days I go to another place and I'm sitting there like this is way better than wherever I was before. Down, we got to wear our clothes and the food was low-key, decent and everything.
Speaker 4:Emma would soon be attending court hearings through Zoom, charged with third-degree battery, for what she'd done to her grandma. She hadn't talked to any of her family since the day she was locked up.
Speaker 2:It must have been like a few days before I had court. I called my grandma. I don't know why I called her and like I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say she just forgave me, but like we just started talking again, like it'd just be little stuff. I just asked her how her day was, and like every couple days, and then we'll talk, some more, talk, some more talk, some more. And then finally, like she was just basically like, are you ready to come home? I was like yeah, I'm ready to come home. So I was in. I was in jail for like 15 days, my first ever time. But my god, third degree battery charge is a felony. So I was like I don't think I'm going home, like this is my first ever charge, so I don't really know how jail works. I was like I'm not going home, I'm never going to see daylight again, I'm not seeing no more daylight, but I just ain't know. That's not how it worked. I was still a kid.
Speaker 4:Emma was out. She was placed on an ankle monitor. She was 15 years old.
Speaker 2:They put me on house arrest, house arrest for nine days. So I'm sitting there, I'm doing good, on house arrest for like a few weeks. I wouldn't say I'm lost in life, but I was just. I was just so hurt Like I don't know what it was, but I was just hurt, like real life hurt, like I just needed I just needed know what it was. But I was just hurt Like real-life hurt, like I just needed some time to find myself. But I had no time to find myself. So I started hanging out with my homeboy and we started using like drugs Like not really bad drugs or anything, just like Xanax, stuff like that Drinking.
Speaker 4:The cycle was repeating itself. She was once again surrounded by a group of friends who were into drugs, and she was once again relying on drugs to numb pain and anger. Emma soon found herself locked up again, this time for two weeks. To this day she doesn't totally understand why, but doesn't think it was drug related. She thinks it has to do with violating the terms of her probation.
Speaker 2:I don't even really know what happened for her. I think I just did a probation replication or something like that. So I got locked up for like two weeks and then this time it wasn't even that bad for her. I just thought I'm just gonna come in here, do my time, go home.
Speaker 4:After she got out, she was still on house arrest, but her brother's birthday was coming up, and even though he was still locked up, she wanted to do something big to celebrate him. So she and her friends made plans to head to Star City for a night out.
Speaker 2:So we got there and then, like my ankle band was beeping the whole time. We tried to cut it off and everything it's not budging, Like it's not coming off. So I'm like, all right, we just got to thug it out. So I get to my friend's house in Star City and I'm sitting there and like someone just told me to like look over my shoulder. I don't know what it was, but I looked over my shoulder and there was. But I looked over my shoulder and there was like two police cars pulling in.
Speaker 2:I'm like, oh my God, I'm like I'm going to go to jail, I'm going to go to jail. And then there's just like, there's just like drugs everywhere, everywhere, all over the place. I'm like throwing them under the seat. But basically I got out the car and then, like they was basically asking about me, I was just like, no, I'm not that person. Like I'm a whole different person. I was saying I'm my little cousin, so I wouldn't go to jail. But then my leg monitor it was beeping like it's like a little green light and you can see it through my, like my pants. So I'm like I'm like trying to hide my legs and stuff. It's not working. So they just like. They're like come on, you gotta come with me, I get in the cop car.
Speaker 4:Emma called her mom from her cell phone hoping she would come get her, but she wouldn't. Instead, her mom told her that she'd turn out just like her brother. Then she tried calling a friend, but that didn't work because he wasn't a legal guardian or over 18, so he was not allowed to take her. Desperate, she called her grandmother, who said no too. As a last resort, she called her mom again, hoping this time would be different.
Speaker 2:I called my mom one more time. She said something made me mad, so I got up, I threw the phone down. I threw it down and it just shattered everywhere. I picked it up and like I'm squeezing it so hard and mine just shattered like shattered so like my hand just dripping blood. So and like the police officer, he's trying to get it out of my hand and I'm not going, like I don't, like why are you trying to take my phone? Like, even though it's broke, I don't care, like it's my stuff, he's trying to take it. So then, like I wasn't giving him the phone, so he started pushing me.
Speaker 4:Emma continued to be upset over the officer trying to take her phone. She says it turned into a physical altercation that left her feeling even more angry and powerless. Here's how she remembers the events of that day.
Speaker 2:Like they pushed me to sit. I fell on the floor. Marnie, I'm like 99 pounds at this time. I'm like 15, 99 pounds. They must have like grabbed my hair. They started hitting me, like put my face into the drain and stuff, cut my nose right here. I'm a little kid, so I'm just like I'm putting my hands up. I'm like I don't want no smoke with y'all, y'all going to kill me. Let me live, let me survive, please. So I put my hands up, they put out a taser and they're like they were finna, tase me. I'm like, please, please, god, please, don't let them tase me. I ain't never been tased before. It hurts.
Speaker 2:So they they willing in this like restraint chair is basically like where all your feet and everything, like you're strapped down to the chair. So they put me in the chair and like I'm not gonna lie, like I'm not just like trying to get out the chair, but like who want to get strapped down to a chair, not me, so I don't think no one does so like I'm not trying to really like kick out of it, but like he, like I don't know, I said something, I did something. He looked at me like he punched me in my face and he was like I'm not gonna take no disrespect from no little kid, little girl, something like that. And like my head like it bounced back and hit his fist again. I'm like I'm in shock. I'm like he really just hit me in my face. I'm like, oh my god, I know he didn't just hit my face like I'm like, okay, I don't want no smoke, I'm straight, I'm just gonna be quiet, I'm just sitting there. I've got dry blood all over my face. I my face aching. I'm like, oh my god, I like what did I just do? And then they put me in a chair. I must have been so mad. I just stood up, my feet strapped down. I stood up, straight up out the chair. I'm not going to lie.
Speaker 2:I get to beating on the door. I'm telling them I don't feel right. I don't feel right, I don't feel right. So they call the ambulance. The ambulance come. I'm just like I just want to go to sleep. I don't want to do nothing, I just want to go to sleep. So I go to sleep.
Speaker 2:I wake up, I'm getting up. So I walk out the door. I'm looking in the mirror. My eyes huge, like huge ain't even a word for it Like it's like a golf ball. I'm like my god, I'm like that is not normal. I was like something is not right. So I'm going, I get into the police car and they take me to JJC and then JJC's like we can't take her, looking like this, like I got dry blood all over my face. It look like I need stitches. I don't want to do no talking. I don't want to say nothing, I just want to go lay down. Please let me go Go to sleep. So we get to the hospital, right, and I'm sitting there. I'm just mad, like I don't know why I'm so mad. You know like when you like, you keep pouring water into a cup and you can't fit no more water in the cup and it's just overpouring. That's how it was. I was just mad at life.
Speaker 4:And she was detained again for traveling outside her monitoring area and for assaulting a police officer.
Speaker 2:I remember just going to court like every week for like three months straight I was just going to court every week. I was on my knees praying to God I would not go to DYS because I was so scared. I was like, please, god, do not let me go to DYS. So then I walked to the courtroom. They said send this to DYS. I lost it, I'm not going to lie. I was screaming, I was crying. They were trying to mace me. I was not trying to get maced, so I just replied, went back to my room and then a month after that, I went to DYS and I remember like halfway through my like DYS day, I'm just chilling, it's not really that bad, like I'm just calm and I'm just ready to go home at this point.
Speaker 2:But I got out of DYS. I got DYS January 16th of 2023 yeah, 2023 and I'm like okay, like this, okay. So like I'm just like chilling really, for like the first couple weeks. And then I started hanging out with this friend, this one friend. I knew she was doing drugs, because I'm not slow, so like I get in the car with her and her homeboy and like they pull out these M30s.
Speaker 4:M30s refer to counterfeit pills that are made to look like tablets of 30 milligrams of oxycodone. Illicit M30s sold on the street are frequently counterfeit pills laced with fentanyl, a synthetic opioid. It's 50 to 100 times stronger than morphine. They are often pressed to look just like the real thing, but even a tiny amount of fentanyl can be lethal.
Speaker 2:I'm like telling her like this is not, this is not a real pill. Like this fentanyl, like this is going to kill you. And I was refusing to do it. Like they kept offering to me. I was refusing to do it for like a couple weeks and then something happened. I got into like um significant other, something like that, and I got in the car and she offered it to me. I ain't gonna lie, I did it and like that's the last thing I remember from that night, I'm not gonna lie. And then I it and like that's the last thing I remember from that night, I'm not gonna lie. And then I was like I was like I need some more of that. So I just started doing fentanyl, like heavily. I was doing like two, three pills a day and that's like a lot of fentanyl, like a lot of fentanyl. So I was doing that and I was like I noticed my weight, like it was like I was losing a lot of weight, like for real.
Speaker 2:And I was with this boy. I was with this boy he was way too old for me, so, mind you like he basically trying to tell me like I'm not gonna leave you on some stuff, but you gotta stop doing what you're doing because, like that's not, that's not good. So I'm like, at the same time, like the drugs, like they had me on like a hold, like I'm just trying to. I'm just trying to use the drugs because I don't want to, I don't want to deal, no pain and nothing like that. But he basically like he like I'm gonna have to leave you. I'm like, okay, so I'm like I'm like getting the ultimatum here.
Speaker 4:I'm like I don't know what to choose the drugs had a on her, but she ended up going to detox to try to save the relationship.
Speaker 2:It wasn't really like it was like a behavioral health center, but like they had detox there. So I'm like 15 still. I'm like 15, 16. And I'm basically like, at this detox place, my system full of drugs I done failed about a hundred drug tests. So like I was in that bed for three days straight.
Speaker 2:I did not eat, I did not sleep, I don't know what was going on. I was just sitting there like just throwing up straight acid, like it was just straight, I don't know what it was like stomach acid acid. It was so bad, like, so bad. They like trying to force Gatorade down my throat. I'm like no, like I can't drink, like y'all are going to kill me. I can't do it. Like my body's like not functioning right. I can't do this. So then, like, finally, after a few days, I started drinking a little bit and I started eating, and then I finally get out of detox and then, like it wasn't even a week later I was using like, but this time like it wasn't like normal, like I was using, but like I was using and doing other things that came with making money and use it.
Speaker 4:And the cycle continued and she was eventually sent back to the behavioral health facility. But this time she started to realize something needed to change.
Speaker 2:I'm in this facility for years and again I'm like this is like when stuff started really clicking. I'm like I don't want to do this for the rest of my life. Something got to change, but I didn't want to put in the effort to change yet, so I wasn't ready.
Speaker 4:When she got home, things got even worse. She learned that a boy that she had been spending a lot of time with was suspected for murder.
Speaker 2:I didn't really know what to do. I'm just like you got to go, you got to go. I'm like I can't do this no more. I cannot do this, cannot. This got in but I wasn't really ready, so I got to use it again.
Speaker 4:As a part of a specialized program called Drug Court, Emma was required to go before a judge every month. The program focuses on helping young people who are facing legal trouble and struggling with addiction. Young people are supervised by the court and also offer counseling and support to try to get their lives back on track. But she wasn't meeting the requirements of this program and once again was sent back to DYS.
Speaker 2:I'm like this time I got, I can't do it no more. This time I got it in, so I'm going there. Everyone know me from the last time, so it's really not that hard or anything like that.
Speaker 4:When she got out about six months later, she was more determined than ever to stay out for good. But it hit her quickly. Most of the people that she used to know weren't around anymore. They were locked up too.
Speaker 2:Everybody in prison. So I'm like, okay, I don't know what I'm going to do, but I still had a couple people that weren't in prison, so I started texting them. And then the week of Thanksgiving, like the day before Thanksgiving, I'm sitting there and like all these people at my house there's like 10 people at my house I'm like, oh my God, what did I just do? And they're just everywhere drugs just everywhere. And like at this point I'm having a hard time not doing drugs.
Speaker 4:So basically, I just got to using A few weeks later she got a call from a friend telling her to come outside. She didn't know what was waiting for her, but she went.
Speaker 2:I got in the car, there was just like coke everywhere. I don't know what I was thinking, but this time I just did it. I did like a whole line.
Speaker 4:The next morning her probation officer was at the door. They'd seen the video that Emma posted and brought a drug test with them. She failed it and when the officer showed the video to Emma's grandmother she broke down in tears.
Speaker 2:So I remember I'm sitting on the front porch and I'm smoking a cigarette and my probation officer's like basically, what you want to do with your life, this ain't going to work forever. I don't know what you think this is, but it's not going to work. So I'm taking her as a joke. I Like I don't know what you think this is, but it's not going to work. So I'm taking her as a joke. I'm laughing in her face. I'm like I'm not tripping, like I don't even know. I don't even know what I want to do.
Speaker 2:So that night I posted on my Instagram again. I posted on my story that they could never find me, like they was never going to lock me up, basically Like I was unstoppable on some stuff. But at the end of the day come on, we know that's not true. So the next day someone called my grandma. My grandma was like it's for you. I'm like okay, so I'm on the phone. And then this, this lady, she's from a behavioral health facility. She's like I'm gonna see you later. I don't know what she's saying, but she's just like I'm gonna see you. I'm like you're not gonna see me later. I don't know what you thought this was. And then I hung up and my probation officer was like you got to be ready by 12. I'm like what is y'all talking about? Be ready by 12? I'm like if I'm going to go, I'm not going sober. So I walked out the house and I'm like I just need to go. I went to my homeboy's house.
Speaker 4:What came next hit her hard a terrifying realization that she'd been incredibly close to losing her life.
Speaker 2:Like I'm coming in and out, but like when I came back in, like fully, I was in an ambulance. Like they was like searching me. I'm like what just happened? And then I get to the hospital and then they're talking about some overdose. I'm like ain't no way, ain't no way I overdosed. And they're like, yeah, you overdosed. I guess they narcan me. They had to narcan me because I'm still here.
Speaker 4:So she was sent to a lockup once again, she says. At first it was hard to take life seriously or care about what happened to her, but as her possible release date approached she started to feel a little more optimistic.
Speaker 2:And then I get caught with some contraband and they're basically like you know, we're not going home now and this and this and that and I don't know. Something just clicked Like I don't like. You just be having one of the moments like I got to stop, like I actually got to stop now, like this is not a game, like I got to stop, like I actually got to stop now, like this is not a game, I got to stop. So I'm just sitting in my room I remember sitting in my room and I'm just thinking like this is, oh, I can't do this, I can't do this. And then I really just like was putting a lot of effort. I tried, I started doing like more positive things. I got closer with my family, I got she started to be given more responsibility, stuff like that. I miss good people, like great people that really just show me I could be more than just drugs and shit.
Speaker 4:She started to be given more responsibilities and freedoms and they let her work in the kitchen, which she enjoys. She's also improving academically. Looking back, she thinks that a lot of her troubling behavior came from trying to be like the one person she felt understood her, the person that she looked up to.
Speaker 2:I think my biggest problem was I wanted to be just like my brother, like whatever he did. I wanted to do. I don't care what it was, I was going to be like my brother. At this point in time, I was going to be like him. I didn't care, I had my mind made up to the fullest. He was going to be in jail. I was going to be in jail. He didn't care about our family. I wasn't going to care about our family. I was going to do whatever he did.
Speaker 4:Her goal now is to become a therapist who helps us battling acceptance, abuse issues to come full circle and give back to those who need help. I'm Paul Chapman. Many young people in lockup have experienced violence, neglect and household dysfunction without ever receiving meaningful support. What often looks like criminal behavior is actually a response to unmet needs. Who will look out for these kids? Coming up on this episode, we'll meet two people who have dedicated their careers to trying to protect kids in custody.
Speaker 6:Support for Smart Justice is provided by Restore Hope. Have you ever wondered why some communities aren't seeing the outcomes they seek when trying to support at-risk families, even those that seem to have all the right assets? Restore Hope is a software and services organization dedicated to empowering communities by offering the coordination and tools needed to support the vulnerable, like those involved in the justice and child welfare systems. Learn how you can bring these tools to your community at restorehopeio.
Speaker 4:Brooke Digby is the juvenile ombudsman for Arkansas. In plain terms, she's the person who makes sure that kids placed in state custody by a judge are being treated fairly and have someone in their corner. She says that getting kids the support that they need while they're in custody can make all the difference in whether they succeed once they return home.
Speaker 3:I monitor all of the juvenile prisons in Arkansas and try to make sure that kids are safe when they're in DYS custody. I try to ensure that they're going to school, that they're getting mental health services. My office is often complaint central. I take complaints from youth, parents, staff, members of the court.
Speaker 4:Digby grew up around at-risk youth. When she was a teenager, her mother worked as a human resources director at Mill Creek of Arkansas, a mental and behavioral health treatment center for children and adolescents. She would often visit the facility.
Speaker 3:Attended proms at that facility, did talent shows at that facility, so I've always had an interest with at-risk youth. I didn't always have the most stable household growing up and I think I wanted a way to give back. There's a saying be the voice that you needed when you were younger, and so that's something that I live by. When kids know you care, they'll try harder. And again, that goes back to kind of rapport and trust building and things like that. From where I started six and a half years ago to now, I feel like I've certainly seen a rise in homicide cases.
Speaker 3:I see more and more kids being charged with capital murder, murder in the first degree. I see younger kids being charged with serious offenses. It's sad. Lots of co-defendants, lots of kids being pulled in with older youth. I think a lot of it goes back to basic needs not being met.
Speaker 3:Gangs are like Vegas. We don't really talk about it. You're not supposed to talk about gangs, affiliations, whatever you want to call it. But a lot of kids, once I get to know them, they will open up.
Speaker 3:Let me know they are affiliated in some kind of way and oftentimes they get affiliated so that they can have a family, belong to something, have protection, and it's not because they don't have a family, but their mom or dad, grandmother, whoever they're living with, may be working or may be on disability, for whatever reason is there's a struggle in the house, someone's not making ends meet or there's not enough food on the table. They're being bullied at school. They don't have nice shoes, they don't have nice clothes. Being bullied at school.
Speaker 3:They don't have nice shoes, they don't have nice clothes. They get affiliated and they start doing illegal things. To make ends meet or feel a part of something. Is it right? Absolutely not, but it's survival for these kids. I had a kid look at me and say what would you do if you didn't have food in the house, ms Brooke, what would you do if you know your little brother wasn't eating? And so while it's awful and they are committing crimes, I get how they can get in some of these situations and once they are in, it's really hard to get out.
Speaker 4:One aspect of juvenile prisons that is particularly concerning to Digby is keeping young people in isolation for long stretches of time.
Speaker 3:That looks like what kids refer to as 23 in ones 23 hours inside of a room, all day, an hour out. During that hour out you're expected to shower, make your phone call, exercise, do whatever you need to do during that time. It's awful. When we start putting kids in solitary day in and day out, that is detrimental to their mental health, it's counterproductive, and then we take away their education, their access to education. It's a recipe for disaster. One of the best things that we can do is educate a youth, and what I have found is that kids actually get further and further behind when they are placed in juvenile detention facilities because they don't have access to education like they would if they were out in the community, out on an ankle monitor, you know, in a less restrictive environment. Sure, there are times where kids need to be locked up, placed in detention because we have serious offenders, but I think there, if we're going to use detention on a long-term basis, there's ways that we could possibly improve that situation.
Speaker 3:I think there's a lot of staffing issues in the juvenile detention centers. I feel like there's a lot of pressure on the juvenile detention centers that are open right now to take on a lot of youth because there is a need for a lot of beds. However, they may not always be in ratio, and under the Prison Rape Elimination Act you're supposed to have one staff for every eight youth during daytime hours, and I don't always see that when I enter facilities. Sometimes I've gone into facilities and I've only seen two staff working with approximately 50 kids being held inside of a JDC. That is not only dangerous for those staff but dangerous for those kids should a fight break out or anything occur. And I think this may be why youth are spending more time in what I would consider solitary confinement, lockdown, whatever you want to call it to try to keep kids safe, because you can't keep them out on units, out on pods, if you don't have enough staff to actually man those units or pods, and so that may be their solution to try to address that concern.
Speaker 4:To understand the scope of Digby's role, it's important to distinguish between juvenile prisons and juvenile detention centers, terms that are sometimes used interchangeably but actually mean different things. Juvenile prisons are long-term placements for youth found responsible for an offense and placed in the custody of the Department of Youth Services. On the other hand, juvenile detention centers are short-term facilities where kids are held while awaiting court hearings or placement, often before any legal determination has been made. Digby is concerned about what happens in these short-term detention centers.
Speaker 3:There is a lack of oversight among the juvenile detention centers and this causes many problems inside the juvenile detention centers and this causes many problems inside the juvenile detention centers. There's just no real checks and balances for detention facilities. They've created my position as an independent oversight to all of the DYS facilities in the state, but there is not a position for independent oversight over juvenile detention facilities in our state. I believe that we are in a crisis right now in terms of juvenile detention beds. A lot of juvenile detention facilities have shut down over the years and there is a lack of bed space for juveniles across our state.
Speaker 4:Many youth in the juvenile justice system are being held in detention centers, not because they've been found guilty, but because they're waiting for mental health evaluations, a crime lab result or even just an open court date. And that wait can do real harm. Digby says, For example, if a child's competency to stand trial is in question, the court may order a psychological evaluation, but there might be limited access for qualified evaluators.
Speaker 3:There's a backup right now at the state hospital and it's hard to get kids in and out quickly, and so kids might be delayed in detention for quite some time, waiting on those evaluations to come back and their documentation to come back anywhere from nine months to a year. So sometimes that can create extra time for a kid to sit in detention. And then, if you factor in also state crime lab getting ballistics back or certain pieces of evidence, that can also create delays and potentially cause a kid to be in detention for quite some time.
Speaker 4:This means that some youth are detained simply because there's nowhere else to send them no foster placement, no treatment bed, no crisis shelter. But the time a child spends in a locked facility can change the course of their life. Their mental health may suffer, they may fall even further behind in school. They may lose connections with their family and community. There is no universal consensus on exactly how long a child sent to a juvenile detention facility should stay there, but there is a growing agreement amongst experts that detention should be as short as possible and only used when absolutely necessary.
Speaker 3:I do believe there is a correlation between length of stay and successful outcomes. Just based on research and chats with other stakeholders in other states, I can recall when there were kids in DYS custody who had been in gosh three, four, five years and they kind of got lost in the system.
Speaker 4:Digby praises the current director of DYS, Michael Crump, for the work that he's been doing to improve this.
Speaker 3:And so I think, with Michael Crump coming in and taking over, he's a numbers guy, he's a data guy he's done a really good job of tracking kids in DYS and trying to get them in, get them out, but I'm not sure where that sweet spot is in terms of time. We have a lot of very serious offenders coming to DYS and so it's hard to say what that number should look like. I know our state likes to have an average length of stay be around the six-month mark.
Speaker 4:When kids are released, they are connected to community-based providers. These are organizations in the community, often nonprofit or government-affiliated, that deliver services and support outside of the detention setting. They often play an important role in helping young people reintegrate into their families, schools and communities.
Speaker 3:We have a lot of issues with transportation, with families getting kids to and from classes, groups, therapy services.
Speaker 3:While the community-based provider may offer a particular group therapy class, the families may not have a way to actually get them to that class.
Speaker 3:A lot of our families are working two or three jobs. A lot of our families are working two or three jobs. A lot of our families are single parent families and they don't have the resources to get their children back and forth to those appointments. On top of probation appointments and maybe therapy appointments that have been court ordered, there's a lot going on in the aftercare stage, when you're ready to be released back into the community, and all of that requires transportation. So, depending on where the community-based provider is located and how far away they are from where the youth lives, that in itself can create a challenge or a barrier to provide that service to that family. I think if we are going to house juveniles in detention, there is a good and better way to do it. There is a good and better way to do it. And if we can make it more therapeutic and have a focus more on therapeutic interventions, then it would be a more productive use of our time.
Speaker 4:Digby commends the Pulaski County Juvenile Detention Center for making positive changes over the past few years.
Speaker 3:They've recently brought in in-house therapists. I think that's a great idea. Benton County does the same thing, fayetteville same thing. That's Washington County. That really helps kids who are in crisis, kids who may be experiencing suicidal ideation in an acute state. That's super helpful. I've seen where the therapists from Pulaski County will come and testify in various hearings, which makes and breaks cases.
Speaker 3:I think in more times than not, it's making those cases and helping those youth out, give them a shot back in the juvenile justice system and helping to advocate for their needs. I think as a state we have to focus more on prevention. We have to start identifying children who are at risk at a younger age and I think we've got to start pouring into those children before they actually are getting into trouble. We've got to do a better job of putting money into the community before it becomes a bigger problem, before they end up adjudicated with some type of charge, before they end up in foster care. We have a huge need for substance abuse treatment services in our state and a lot of the youth that come to DYS custody have substance abuse issues and if it's not them that have substance abuse issues, it's their family members that have substance abuse issues.
Speaker 3:I do think the schools have an advantage in terms of they're on the front lines. They can kind of see the kids that are coming in or see the kids that aren't making it to school. Oftentimes that's a telltale sign in itself is who's not showing up to school? Turrency is a big warning sign, figuring out what's going on in the home. But we've got to start somewhere and we've got to figure out funding to pour into that once we start identifying those kids, because I'm sure the schools can come up with nine billion kids right now that probably need help. But then where are we going to turn for that help? I've been a part of a lot of groups that have talked about a lot of wonderful things that we could do for children, but it always comes back to money and funding, and there's never enough of it.
Speaker 4:Digby hopes for more training for police officers who are interacting with children. The way police interact with youth can have a huge impact on their trust in authority or even longer-term outcomes in the justice system. Youth, especially teens, process information differently. Emotional or erratic behavior is not necessarily willful defiance, but sometimes a response to being confused, scared or overwhelmed.
Speaker 3:Even routine police interactions can feel like life or death situations for some teens, I feel like there is a lack of training among police across our state in terms of how to interact and communicate with juveniles. A lot of our juveniles are afraid of police. They could be brought up that way and it could be based off of their own interactions with police. I've personally watched video of terrible interactions with police officers, so I would totally understand why they would be afraid of police, just based off of what I've personally seen and witnessed. I think a lot of these offices are used to interacting with adults and you can't communicate and interact with kids the same way that you can with adults. Everything starts with trust and rapport with kids and you don't get that right off the bat with them. You get too close in their personal space. You start putting hands on a kid. It's immediate shutdown. It's that fight, flight or freeze, and you're not sure which one they're going to do. A lot of times it's probably going to be fight or flight. That's why you see a lot of runners or a lot of them throwing punches, but they're threatened in some kind of way and a lot of the kids that they're interacting with come from hard places, come from trauma, and that's a common response for those types of kids.
Speaker 3:The truth is, we're arresting a lot of juveniles At least, I feel like we are. I know that I stay in court all of the time, testifying in various juvenile transfer hearings, and I see a lot of juvenile crime. I know that the police are having a lot of interaction with juveniles. Kids are the future. These kids are the kids that are going to be in your community. We have to pour into these children or these become the adults we're feeding the adult criminal system. Let's save them. Let's do everything that we can to reduce our numbers. If you pour into the front end, hopefully we're not having to pour into the back end and their little juvenile brains are not fully formed, and so there is time. We have time and resources that we can use to change these thought patterns, to address this trauma and fix some of this and get them back on the right path, help our communities be safer and improve our outcomes in the juvenile justice system overall.
Speaker 3:Also, our kids feel so judged by a lot of people out in the community and they need the support of everyone in the community.
Speaker 3:They need to see that everyone is willing to get involved and come back them and help them overcome whatever it is that they need. Oftentimes, sadly, they can't depend on a lot of their own family members, so it's going to take someone else from our community to step in and maybe help them get a need met, whether that's providing a coat, helping with access to food, could be noticing that they need a pair of shoes, and that's what makes, in my opinion, some of the biggest recognizing the needs of some of these at-risk youth in order for us to not have to pay for it so much. In the adult system and on the back end there I've seen kids come to DYS with very serious offenses, do extremely well and learn, and that is honestly one of the most rewarding parts of my job. So I think that you have to have little wins every once in a while to keep going, because you're constantly getting burned out on both ends, and that has been a huge win for me is seeing that.
Speaker 5:Support for this podcast is provided by the nonprofit Restore Hope and the Hunter Families Initiative, moving families from crisis to career through innovative case management. Software. Communities can develop strategies to best support those in need in their area and track outcome data in real time to see what's working. Learn more at restorehopeio.
Speaker 4:Charles Parkins is the program director at the Arkansas Juvenile Assessment and Treatment Center in Alexander. He's worked in juvenile justice for nearly 30 years. During that time he's seen the good, the bad and everything in between. He started in 1993 as a juvenile detention officer. Over the years he's run systems in Florida, indiana, colorado, new York and now Arkansas.
Speaker 1:It's great, that's fantastic. I love working with the kids, coming up with new ideas, coming up with fun things for them to do, working on treatment refining systems. So Arkansas is a great system with a lot of potential compared to a lot of the other states and governments that I've worked in. One of the coolest things hands down about Arkansas is the system knows their kids by name. So you know when something is happening and you say, hey, I've got an issue with Johnny. They know who Johnny is and you know. They know who Johnny's family is and the. You know there's ways to connect those services to help. It doesn't always work right because everybody has to be in that same place to move something forward, but just knowing who those people are makes such a huge difference and the possibilities of having a more individualized approach to therapeutic services and understanding family dynamics is a real possibility in a system like Arkansas. These are kids who are in care and it's important to provide that care and make sure they're treated fairly, honestly, that they're recognized as just people who you know need some help.
Speaker 1:This is not an easy job. People who come into this system usually are looking to help. They just want to help. Maybe they went through something when they were younger or you know they feel somehow connected and they want to reconnect with that, maybe to heal old wounds or whatever the case may be. But they feel drawn to help.
Speaker 1:And it can be hard, right, when you're working with a group of individuals who don't want help necessarily in that moment or don't know they need it.
Speaker 1:And so you know what I would tell people all the time is you don't know how you're going to respond to somebody spitting in your face until somebody spits in your face.
Speaker 1:And you can train somebody for six days or six years, but until they have that experience you know it's not real. You can prepare for it, but in that moment, that's when you're going to know is this the right career for me? And so I think, especially post-COVID, turnover in this field, in law enforcement, in so many other places, has just changed dynamically. You know, if a staff member decides they're going to go do something else, there's a loss for the kids that are here who have, you know, related to or continue to rely on, and so you know it's not just that we potentially lose a staff, but all the kids that have gotten connected with that staff now potentially lose somebody else in their life who's no longer there to support them. So here kids stay for a longer period of time, so we have a better opportunity to form relationships, to kind of build trust, so that we can have a real impact on their lives.
Speaker 4:And an important metric for whether that help has made a difference is seeing how many kids come back.
Speaker 1:Recidivism. For juveniles it's kind of complicated but we do see. You know, unfortunately, probably 20% or so of kids that come back. When you're talking about detention that number could be much higher, because those are kids that are often arrested awaiting the court process. They go back home and then they come back in. Some of them are coming back in for violating the terms of probation, not necessarily for committing new offenses. So you know, kids who struggle to follow rules then have more rules imposed on them while they're on probation, making it that much more difficult to follow those rules, and the consequence is often much harsher when you're on probation. You know if you're not on probation and you skip school, then you're skipping school. If you're on probation, you skip school. You could potentially go to jail for that because you're violating the terms of your probation.
Speaker 4:Probation is like a second chance for a young person who has gotten in trouble with the law. They can stay at home, go to school and live their life, as long as they follow the rules they are given. These rules might include meeting regularly with a probation officer, going to counseling or following a curfew. A probation officer is assigned to check in on the young person and support them with the hope that they don't go back into the system.
Speaker 1:Over the years there's been a lot more services in place to help prevent that and a lot more of an understanding. You know, I can remember years ago where we would see kids who were 13 years old being locked back up for failing to appear in court. Well, how does a 13 year old get to court if their parents don't take them? So I mean that's, you know, that's huge. You know we would see, especially in like South Florida, and years ago we would see girls who were arrested for prostitution but they weren't old enough to consent to even have sex, but they're getting arrested for prostitution.
Speaker 1:I mean, there's been such a shift in changes. I think the system has understood, you know, um, what seems so obvious now and put some uh, things in place. But certainly, I mean there's a real struggle for an individual to be one motivated to follow probation or go to court or do the things that they're supposed to be doing. But two, sometimes just the ability. I mean you know we hear people all the time of I can't get my you know car working so that I can go get groceries or take my kid to school, and then that potentially leads to somebody who is, you know, truant from school who might be on probation, and you know that that can have a cumulative effect.
Speaker 4:When asked whether he believes there is a shortage of detention center beds, parkins says I don't know that new beds or more beds is often the answer.
Speaker 1:Harkin says I don't know that new beds or more beds is often the answer, because it's only throwing one solution in a problem. You know the solution is then locking more people up. I mean, if there's more services on the front end, if there's more options for for kids, for families, then that maybe you don't need more beds, then that maybe you don't need more beds. Oftentimes, when you go to court, one of the things that you'll hear a judge say is you're hanging around with the wrong people and as a result of that, I'm going to lock you up in a place where I think all the wrong people should be Right.
Speaker 1:So we know that peer influence on kids is significant and we talk about kids who come in who are substance abuse users. When you lock up a substance abuse user and introduce them to 15 new drug dealers, are you helping them? You know so in some ways, when we incarcerate, we could potentially do more harm than good. We potentially you know, exponentially create a bigger problem for individuals. So now that they go back home, maybe they do have more coping skills to deal with individual behaviors, but that has to outweigh the negative peer influences, the new social dynamics, not to mention whatever dynamics existed at home, with family, with friends, with neighborhoods. So it's really hard to quantify that.
Speaker 4:So what's the best way to gauge success of prevention and intervention efforts? Parkins says that reducing the number of system-involved youth is key, but it's not the whole picture the number of system-involved youth is key, but it's not the whole picture.
Speaker 1:That's where it gets really hard and tricky One, because you know we live in a world where when we do something, we want to measure it, we want to see if it's successful. If it is, we want to replicate it. You know we want to look for that solution Intervention or prevention services. Rather, that's really difficult because how to know that the prevention that's being applied is the reason why johnny is not being locked up and, as a result, throughout the country many programs that are put in place that are prevention services don't stay funded long enough to really figure out. Is that the what is that? The why right place that are prevention services don't stay funded long enough to really figure out? Is that the? What is that? The why right? Is that the solution? It's a. It's a real struggle but at the same time, you know, having fewer issues in the community. I mean it. It really is the. You know it takes a village kind of um response to it. I mean's that's the reality of it. If the you know the restorative justice model, you know where the community and the offender are working together to. You know restore something is is really the model that can work in large jurisdictions. It's hard because there's so many other pieces in place.
Speaker 1:We started looking at services for kids who were first-time offenders in Florida. So kids would get arrested, they would be brought into a juvenile assessment center and at the same time we would do a questionnaire to talk about what are your family needs? Do you have trouble paying your electric bill? Are your family needs Do you have? You know you have trouble paying your electric bill. You know because the first time touching the system usually families are a little bit more you know in tuned with how do we fix this right. There's a sense of urgency there and tapping into that and then using that information is like for geo mapping. So if I know that more families in this area are having difficulty accessing these services, then working with you know community partners to see how do we shift resources to that community, because we're seeing that you know cluster of individuals ending up touching a juvenile justice system. Most kids who get arrested will touch the system, they'll go to court and they'll never come back again.
Speaker 1:I think one of the hardest things about working in this field but also kind of reassuring in the background is we see the reappeat offenders, right. We see the kids who come in and they leave and then they come back and it just it's repeating. What we don't see is those kids who come in, they touch the system you know you have an impact on their life and then they never come back again, right, they go on to be successful, they go on to college, they do all these wonderful things. We never hear about that. What we do see is those kids who come back often, who need more services you know have, who are higher needs kids. I think that has a pretty significant impact on whether or not individuals working in this field feel like they're accomplishing something.
Speaker 1:When you see the same person coming back over and over again, it doesn't feel like you're being successful as a professional because you just don't see the success stories Every once in a while. You just don't see the success stories Every once in a while. You might run into them at the store or you know the community and then you can hear about that, but you know that doesn't happen often. You know the kids that just go out and then they have families and they just right, they're plumbers or roofers or bankers or whatever. They end up being Neighbors, essentially is what you end up with. I mean that to me is really cool that we can have that kind of impact on somebody and then never know it. We work in a field where our success is incredibly private and our failures are incredibly public.
Speaker 4:When kids cycle through detention centers, it's easy to blame bad choices, but what we don't always talk about is everything that came before, like the unmet needs and the lack of support. What we're really facing isn't solely a justice system issue. It's something deeper, as Perkins told us.
Speaker 1:And this is a social problem. It's not a criminal justice problem. It's not a criminal justice problem. It's not a law enforcement problem. This is a social issue that we have to figure out more supportive ways of managing.
Speaker 4:Next time on Smart Justice, we're bringing you a special bonus episode. Guests from this season will return to share powerful updates on their work to curb youth crime, and they've got some exciting progress to report. Thanks for joining us this season. We always appreciate hearing from you. Please send us your thoughts at media, at restorehopeio, and don't forget to sign up for our weekly email at smartjusticeorg to stay connected and get the latest stories delivered straight to your inbox. Thank you.
