A Look to the Future - S2 E6

We talk with Arkansas' Attorney General about Community Diversion and a Representative from Fort Smith where the courts, law enforcement, and community providers are usually connected in innovative ways.

The way forward is to run a pilot 'Community Diversion' program in around 10 different courts to define common measures and procedures and then assess outcomes across a broad range of factors including litigant substance use, housing, employment, and ability to satisfy unresolved legal obligations. Around 60 leaders including several judges are convening at the Rockefeller Institute in March of 2023 to plan a pilot. 

Many Arkansans in prison and/or with children in the child welfare system started their legal engagement with misdemeanor crimes like traffic tickets, driving with no insurance, or theft. Community Diversion in District Courts is a key move to prevent future incarceration and/or foster care.

Thanks to:
Arkansas Attorney General Tim Griffin
Representative Cindy Crawford
Winthrop Rockefeller Institute Executive Director Janet Harris 

Transcript

00;00;04;22 - 00;00;40;26
Tim Griffiin
And I think what you're trying to do with your district court diversion program and where you identify people who are in district court for misdemeanors and you see that if you can intervene at that stage, you can wrap your arms around those people with reality, responsibility and equip them with training and counseling and education and the burden of responsibility and give them the chance.

00;00;40;26 - 00;00;51;11
Tim Griffiin
And they may fail. Some of them will fail. But the ones that don't fail, you may have saved their lives.

00;00;53;05 - 00;01;00;28
Charles Newsom
This is season two, Episode six of the Smart Justice Podcast - A Look to the Future.

00;01;02;13 - 00;01;08;26
Paul Chapman
Crime and Punishment are hot topics. Are there solutions different than what we're hearing about a national level?

00;01;09;00 - 00;01;16;12
Judge Amy Grimes
They're trying to stop that cycle so that we don't see their children. They don't see them in juvenile court. We don't see them headed to circuit court.

00;01;16;20 - 00;01;23;20
Chief Jamie Hammond
We give someone a traffic ticket and they're scared they can't pay their ticket. And what they do is they don't show for court. They think it's going to go away. Well it doesn’t go away.

00;01;23;22 - 00;01;29;19
Judge Mark Baker
It's not about the court bringing in that money. It's about helping that person avoid this kind of problem in the future.

00;01;30;04 - 00;01;35;17
Paul Chapman
There is a different way to approach justice that has a better return on investment.

00;01;35;18 - 00;01;42;24
Sheriff Phillip Miller
The bad people need to be in jail and stay there. Folks that are suffering from these social ills, they don’t need to be here.

00;01;42;24 - 00;01;51;00
Paul Chapman
That seems to strengthen both law enforcement and courts and tie that together with community resources.

00;01;51;05 - 00;01;59;17
Judge Amy Grimes
That's what makes it worthwhile. That little bit of extra time you spend working on it. But if you can't do a little mercy when you're here, then it's not worth being here.

00;01;59;17 - 00;02;10;27
Paul Chapman
And then track the impact to communities and better outcomes. And we're calling this approach Smart Justice.

00;02;10;27 - 00;02;28;25
Ed Lowry
Smart Justice is a work of Restore Hope and partner organizations. Restore Hope is a software and services organization that helps communities achieve better outcomes for justice and child welfare efforts. Smart Justice is focused on optimizing the system by improving the relationships among its parts.

00;02;35;00 - 00;03;03;24
Charles Newsom
In season two, we have been exploring the options of how district court is the place to go upstream to prevent people from going further into the justice system. Paul Chapman and I sat down to discuss how to look forward. So Paul, crime’s going up in the city. They’re talking about getting new beds, which I don't like that, but you have to have somewhere to put criminals. What’s the alternative for that.

00;03;04;10 - 00;03;04;29
Charles Newsom
What do you think?

00;03;05;23 - 00;03;46;18
Paul Chapman
Yeah, we're at a point it seems, in the state that we're going to need some more prison beds because they've got county jail back up and all those things. And what we've been talking about this season is we've got to solve that problem. But, you know, if we're thinking forward five, ten years down the down the road, then what we need to do is we need to one of the things that we need to do is go upstream and let's find the individuals that are starting to get in trouble like in misdemeanor courts and could we engage them in ways using data and all that we've kind of talked about in this season, but offer

00;03;46;18 - 00;04;03;19
Paul Chapman
them a way out. If I've got a suspended driver's license and you pull me over and I've got kids in the car and I don't have anyone that can come get the kids, you know, because I'm going to jail to serve the warrant and may have to sit in jail for a few days. Just depends on the court and when courts are.

00;04;03;19 - 00;04;23;02
Paul Chapman
But I may be in jail for a few days. Kids have to go somewhere, and and if you don't have any family members that can take those kids and they're going to go into foster care. You know, while you're in jail, you're not showing up to work. And so you may lose your job or you're definitely going to lose the hours and you can't pay rent.

00;04;23;03 - 00;04;51;14
Paul Chapman
So, you know what was pretty small that was an indicator is just something bigger that was going on in my life. I had a lot of trouble that I couldn't get really dealt with. Now it actually all the wheels come off the bus. I'm just in full blown crisis now. We need to start really looking at the opportunities that we have in places that are upstream of felony incarceration, like the district court.

00;04;51;17 - 00;04;55;06
Charles Newsom
Now, you say upstream, give me a definition of it.

00;04;55;24 - 00;05;21;08
Paul Chapman
Yeah. So many of the people that we have seen through data first got in trouble in misdemeanor court. So they showed up in court and they didn't pay their fees and their fines for a traffic ticket or for a little they stole something, some shoplifting or they got a DUI and it was a misdemeanor DUI. We can find someone that needs help right then.

00;05;21;11 - 00;05;48;06
Paul Chapman
But without any help, what we see oftentimes for our clients that have done time or have gotten out and they they've had it they've done felony time in prison, is we could have found them and offered them help while they were first starting kind of their decline into full blown crisis, multiple areas of crisis that resulted in in crime and victims and felonies and and then doing time.

00;05;48;06 - 00;05;48;15
Charles Newsom
Right.

00;05;49;13 - 00;06;02;24
Paul Chapman
So we just need to intervene earlier. It's better for the person, it's better for the community and it's better for the taxpayer, you know, before it's all the way down, all the way down where you got to do time.

00;06;02;24 - 00;06;12;05
Charles Newsom
With us doing that like, do we have any like, this is legislation on these issues, things like that? Anything on the table right now?

00;06;12;17 - 00;06;38;20
Paul Chapman
That I think that's ultimately what our goal is here is given what we've seen in the years that we've participated with judges and courts and community members, where we've seen the judge partner with the community at district court, everyone thinks it's valuable right? Law enforcement thinks it's valuable. The prosecutors think it's valuable. Defense attorneys think it's valuable. The judge thinks it's valuable, the participants.

00;06;39;00 - 00;06;48;17
Paul Chapman
And so everyone saying that there's great value here in preventing tax spend and more serious crime. So socially and fiscally better.

00;06;49;04 - 00;06;53;11
Charles Newsom
Paul sat down with Arkansas Representative Cindy Crawford.

00;06;54;14 - 00;07;14;29
Paul Chapman
Representative Crawford, can we just talk a little bit about what's been happening in Fort Smith in regards to law enforcement and the courts and really the collaboration that's happening? There is something that that I haven't really seen in other parts of the state. But just from your perspective, what are you seeing?

00;07;16;19 - 00;07;57;19
Cindy Crawford
I love how the police are working with the sheriffs and how the judges are working with DCFS. And when you bring all of the community partners and state partners together, you begin to see a change happen in the community that, for instance, in Fort Smith, instead of law enforcement, they are now policing. And that came from Chief Danny Baker, who said that that they've changed their whole scope of how they enter into a call, a 911 call or a violent call.

00;07;58;15 - 00;08;35;22
Cindy Crawford
They come in looking rather than just to arrest someone, take them to jail. They then bring crisis managers with them to see what's really going on, the dynamics around why they were called. And in that process they diffuse the situation where they can and it causes less incarceration. Since 2017, 40% decline in the number of people who have been incarcerated in Sebastian County jails.

00;08;36;08 - 00;09;05;13
Cindy Crawford
Now, when I say that, understand, that does not mean that they're soft on crime because they are not and they are very strong with the violent criminals and domestic violence and the things that happen there. They are strong in our community, but at the same time, they are liaisons of hope for those who are in the ditches. You know that police officers see that more than any of us.

00;09;05;25 - 00;09;30;01
Cindy Crawford
They see the worst in people. And if they can change their mindset, if I can quote Sheriff Hobe Runion, he said I can call I can solve a crime. I can put someone in jail. He said, But I had to learn how to come into the situation, diffuse it, and actually look at the situation surrounding it.

00;09;31;23 - 00;09;59;26
Paul Chapman
So with I think what we're kind of exploring here is say there are some courts that are doing some very innovative things. We, you know, let's let's run a true pilot in at least ten courts across Arkansas and different communities. Review that data, track that data. And I think at the end, what we'll find is that that we won’t look at it as a set of expenses that are needed for those courts to be able to do that.

00;10;00;03 - 00;10;07;28
Paul Chapman
But instead an investment that we're making for those individuals that are very likely to become incarcerated or entangled in the child welfare system.

00;10;07;28 - 00;10;31;02
Cindy Crawford
And I think that's very doable as we go forth and show the the savings in helping people be successful rather than just the commitment to throwing them in jail. And then on even on the misdemeanor, even if they don't go to jail, they still have those fines.

00;10;32;00 - 00;10;36;03
Paul Chapman
And a suspended driver's license, which you're driving on, get to work and.

00;10;36;07 - 00;11;07;11
Cindy Crawford
Right. Right. And we've been fighting that for a very long time. So but there's got to be a better way. There's got to be a better way. And so there again, working with the judges and training them like the ones in Sebastian County, Fort Smith, to where you work with the people to make it easier and so that they can be more successful rather than just coming under the weight of more fines.

00;11;07;27 - 00;11;16;06
Cindy Crawford
So that's training. Training costs money. So I believe as a legislature, we can do that.

00;11;17;23 - 00;11;43;23
Paul Chapman
I think the next step for us truly is we need to run a pilot pulling all the data that we can on the participants, on the cost of running the program and on outcomes. And I think what we find that homelessness goes down, housing stability goes up, employment goes up, child care goes up, recovery or, you know, substance abuse goes down.

00;11;44;00 - 00;11;55;18
Paul Chapman
Recovery is up. And so what we need, I think, is a series of pilots in multiple settings, Track all that data to be able to package and take to the legislator.

00;11;56;06 - 00;12;04;08
Charles Newsom
Is it a certain place or judge or certain program and it will be like a model for for this idea? Was it Searcy?

00;12;04;20 - 00;12;36;23
Paul Chapman
You know what's interesting is in White County, which Searcy is the county seat there, that community has come together so well that I believe there is a case manager in every court that will look for folks that are in trouble and seemingly kind of trapped and they'll connect them to the community resources and the judges are receiving the reports about their performance there and and then kind of using that as their community diversion program.

00;12;36;23 - 00;12;59;26
Paul Chapman
And so they'll count that good, as to the requirements of kind of the punishment that they would receive for the crime they committed. You know, we think about these things a lot of times just transactional. But, man, their somebody you know, that person that we're mad at is somebody's son or daughter. They may have kids.

00;12;59;28 - 00;13;19;20
Paul Chapman
Often do, but half the time they've got kids of their own under the age of 18. Hopefully they're employed. But about 50% of the time in the data that we've looked at, the folks that we're meeting in district court, about 50% of them have no legal source of income. Right. They are truly descending into their hopeless.

00;13;19;20 - 00;13;20;00
Charles Newsom
Right.

00;13;20;13 - 00;13;36;04
Paul Chapman
And they don't know a way out. And oftentimes, either because of the substance abuse or to try to deal with the misery that they're currently in will turn to substances to escape short term but.

00;13;36;22 - 00;13;39;20
Charles Newsom
And those type of behaviors can lead to incarceration.

00;13;40;09 - 00;13;40;29
Paul Chapman
And they sure do.

00;13;41;03 - 00;13;41;15
Charles Newsom
Right.

00;13;42;06 - 00;13;46;27
Paul Chapman
Yeah. Either to support your habit or you don't know what you're doing while you're out of it.

00;13;46;27 - 00;14;14;02
Charles Newsom
And that’s why prevention is very big, and for the communities to come together and create these type of programs to make us smarter. And to you know into the justice in just the way that we handle in the court system and things like that. So prevention, we need a lot of that. You think about we have a new governor. Did we get a new attorney general?

00;14;14;05 - 00;14;16;14
Paul Chapman
We've got a new attorney general.

00;14;16;22 - 00;14;18;07
Charles Newsom
How do you think, where do you think they’re going to go?

00;14;18;21 - 00;14;40;01
Paul Chapman
Well, they are dealing with the legislative session as we sit now in February of 23. Legislative session is going. And we know that a public safety package is coming and the legislator has to deal with the lack of prison beds and the demand for them. So the back up, we know that we're we're going to to deal with that.

00;14;40;01 - 00;15;05;16
Paul Chapman
It looks like we're going to add thousands of beds in Arkansas to deal with that back demand. But we had an opportunity to sit down with Attorney General Griffin and talk to him about what he thinks about this upstream idea. We wanted to take an opportunity and talk a little bit. There's much going on in the state right now around public safety and criminal justice reform.

00;15;05;16 - 00;15;15;01
Paul Chapman
And we just wanted to get kind of your thoughts as one of the leaders in the state in this issue. You know, what are the current thoughts and what are the problems that we're solving right now?

00;15;15;06 - 00;15;52;19
Tim Griffiin
The first thing I would say is the immediate problem is, is violence. If you... and public safety, not just people violating the law and getting in trouble, but people violating the law, getting in trouble and impacting others by making us all less safe. The government does a lot of great things, but its most important function is to provide safety and order for society.

00;15;52;27 - 00;16;17;24
Tim Griffiin
And if government can't keep you safe, it is failing at the most fundamental level. It is failing in one of the most fundamental responsibilities. You know, if it can't do this or it can't do that, that may be bad. But safety and your ability to be free and not worry about your well-being in terms of your safety, that's fundamental.

00;16;18;05 - 00;16;42;03
Tim Griffiin
You know, I like to say, and it sort of sounds like a bumper sticker, but it also happens to be true. If you're not safe, you're not free. If you can't go certain places, if you can't, as I hear, fill up your car with gas in the evening because you're afraid of what might happen. You're not free. And so this is this is a big problem.

00;16;42;17 - 00;17;05;24
Tim Griffiin
Part of solving that is incapacitating, putting people who would do us harm separate from us so they can't do us harm. Okay, That's a part of addressing the problem. But I think, you know, there are a lot of ideas that flow around. There's there's some dealing with the more violent crime, but there's a lot of crime that is not violent.

00;17;05;24 - 00;17;43;16
Tim Griffiin
And it's all up and down the scale. Many individuals who end up doing the more serious violent crimes start out. Of course, doing something much less serious, less violent, what we consider less serious. And so there is this escalation over time, and it's really important to deal with all components here. When people talk about we shouldn't do this, we should do that, we can't build a new prison, we should do this.

00;17;44;11 - 00;18;14;17
Tim Griffiin
That's what we call in logic a false choice. No one is making anyone choose between A or B. The reality is we need to do all of the above. We need more prison space because we haven't built any in in decades. We need to quit putting violent felons in our county jails where misdemeanor... those convicted of misdemeanors are supposed to be.

00;18;15;07 - 00;18;45;18
Tim Griffiin
And at the same time, we need to look at ways to rehabilitate those who are entering society because they are going to reenter society at some point, most of them. And we also need to look at ways to go and to intervene with people early on in their in their lives as early as possible, to get them off of the wrong track and onto the right track with those people.

00;18;45;18 - 00;19;19;25
Tim Griffiin
We want to intervene and divert them to keep them out of a of a system that might exacerbate their problems and try to get them the help that they need and to leave to lead a productive life. Look, as a conservative, and I think this is critically important. As a conservative, we I believe my principles, particularly my my faith and just common sense conservative policies.

00;19;20;05 - 00;19;44;18
Tim Griffiin
I believe we should own the rehabilitated space that should we should be the leaders as conservatives with regard to rehabilitation. And let me let me tell you why. Number one, we are all equal before God. And there but for the grace of God goes I. Now that doesn't appeal to everybody. So if that argument doesn't appeal to you and you go, ahhh...

00;19;44;24 - 00;20;09;22
Tim Griffiin
That doesn't really appeal to me. What else you got? Well, there's some other reasons why conservatives ought to lead on this. And it has a lot to do with just being just applying common sense. Right. Number two is they're going to get out and they're coming to a neighborhood near you. You should want people who are going to move to be my neighbor and yours,

00;20;10;03 - 00;20;41;24
Tim Griffiin
We should want them not just surviving. We should want them thriving. Right? We should want them not just getting by. We should want them reading, dealing with the illiteracy problem. We should want them pursuing an education. We should want them reconciling with family. We should want them becoming a loving, engaged parent with regard to any kids they might have.

00;20;41;24 - 00;21;44;20
Tim Griffiin
We should want them to deal with conflict through means other than violence. We should want all that. Right? So they're coming to a neighborhood near you. That's number two. We want them to thrive, not just survive. Number three it’s cheaper. It’s cheaper. You alluded to this. If we can get people on the right path educationally in terms of their addiction, whatever they're dealing with, then anger management, conflict resolution, all that stuff, getting them, you know, a diesel driving certificate, a plumbing certificate, an associate degree, bachelor degree, law degree, whatever they want to pursue in prison or out, It's going to be cheaper for us if they are rowing in the direction of the rest of

00;21;44;20 - 00;22;16;23
Tim Griffiin
society, paying taxes because they're thriving versus taking taxes. Okay. So there's the number one there but by the grace of God goes I. Number two, we want them... they're coming to a neighborhood near you. You want them to be good neighbors. Number three, it's cheaper. And number four, we can't fill the jobs. We have. I've... Look, I've spent some time sharing with folks on the board a Pathway to Freedom, a Christ-based ministry.

00;22;16;23 - 00;22;35;17
Tim Griffiin
I've led worship at Wrightville prison. I remember one occasion I was down there and shook the hand of every prisoner in that in that cellblock or that that unit. Talked with them. Asked them their name. Some of them, I talk with them while they were in there. And what I found was a lot of them had skill sets.

00;22;35;17 - 00;23;09;03
Tim Griffiin
One in particular I'm thinking of had skill sets that we need to fill jobs. So, I mean, there's a host of reasons that if possible, we need to do what we can. Now, you don't want to be Pollyannish about this. There are some folks that never need to get out of prison. Now, in your particular case, you're looking at the the the gradient spectrum from the the lower end, nonviolent misdemeanors.

00;23;10;02 - 00;23;12;08
Tim Griffiin
And you're looking at where a lot of those people...

00;23;12;08 - 00;23;13;21
Paul Chapman
It’s that escalation that you were talking about.

00;23;13;21 - 00;23;45;19
Tim Griffiin
It’s the escalation. And so there are good programs around the country that do what we call diversion. And I know you're really interested in this and it works. Not every person is a good candidate for diversion, meaning not everybody wants to get or is capable, at least based on the numbers. Obviously, God can change anybody's heart, but some people are less likely or more likely to be changed.

00;23;45;19 - 00;24;29;14
Tim Griffiin
And so with some people who are in district court for misdemeanors, we see an opportunity with some of those people to get them the addiction help they need. Work skills, the life skills, what have you. Then in that group before they get too far down the prison road, can be helped and lived productive lives. And that in turn, looking at my points that I made, that saved taxpayer dollars and it takes people out of the prison path, it gives us more employees because a lot of these people will get critical work skills.

00;24;31;06 - 00;25;29;27
Tim Griffiin
And if you're talking about bang for your buck in terms of money, you get the most bang for your buck, you get the most for your dollar by investing in the diversion before people get too far down that road. And I think a lot of the principles that I have enumerated here or what you're trying to do with your district court diversion program and where you identify people who are in district court for misdemeanors, and you see that if you can intervene at that stage, you can wrap your arms around those people with reality responsibility and equip them with training and counseling and education and the burden of responsibility and give them the chance.

00;25;29;27 - 00;25;52;00
Tim Griffiin
And they may fail. Some of them will fail. But the ones that don't fail, you may have saved their lives and you definitely may have made their their life path better because we're changing their long term trajectory.

00;25;56;12 - 00;26;18;06
Charles Newsom
Where do we go from here? We got all these different systems fighting and some work, some don't. How do we make it all come together? We can weed out the ones they don't. The once that work let’s look at them, get the data and push for. What's your vision of of making this system work? Where do we go from here?

00;26;18;29 - 00;26;43;25
Paul Chapman
Yeah, that's a it's a really good question. I think where we go from here is we need to gather the judges that are already attempting community diversion in some sort. We need to get them together and and then we need to work out exactly how we would, just like you said, some things work and some things don't. But how do you know unless you track it?

00;26;44;11 - 00;27;14;17
Paul Chapman
So we're going. That's the idea of the pilot, is we need to be able to track in multiple areas the same thing and start to really do an evaluation of what works and what doesn't. And and then lay that down over each other and find out was it just, you know, in one particular area or is it kind of a a bigger truth because that would go in to the to the full package.

00;27;14;17 - 00;27;41;03
Paul Chapman
So we've had a partnership with the Winthrop Rockefeller Institute who does convenings, then helps work through, groups work through very complex problems. And in March of this year of 2023, we actually have a group of over 50 people, including eight district court judges, that are going to gather for a few days up there and work on exactly what the pilot should look like.

00;27;41;08 - 00;27;47;08
Charles Newsom
Janet Harris, the new executive director of the Rockefeller Institute.

00;27;48;05 - 00;28;12;08
Janet Harris
Our mission here at the Winthrop Rockefeller Institute is to continue Winthrop Rockefeller's collaborative approach to creating transformational change. And what that means is that we bring people together to solve problems on issues that are most important to Arkansas. One of the things that we really want to focus on here at the Institute is how we can use collaboration to transform

00;28;12;08 - 00;28;33;21
Janet Harris
systems and systems are typically made up of lots of different players, lots of different organizations affecting lots of different people. And so when we had the good fortune to meet the folks at Restore Hope, we knew that there was a potential for transformational change through the model that Restore Hope has put forth and is building in communities.

00;28;33;28 - 00;29;04;14
Janet Harris
We also wanted to encourage Restore Hope and others who are interested in reducing recidivism to look at the entire system of corrections and community corrections and how we can focus on helping individuals reunite with their communities and their families. At the beginning of any collaboration, it looks kind of messy. The problem is big, it's complex. There's a lot of people involved and what we try to do here at the institute is get people to zero in on the outcome that they want to achieve.

00;29;04;23 - 00;29;45;11
Janet Harris
And sometimes that takes a lot of conversation. So with our IR3 program, we have been convening now for a couple of years, bringing folks together here on Petit Jean Mountain, but also in working groups that are meeting all over the state. And one of the things that I've noticed over the last several years or last several meetings that we've had is that the more people that we bring into this conversation, the more we learn not only about the obstacles that are in the system that keep people incarcerated or send them back to prison, but also about the opportunities that we have together collectively to jump in and figure out the right intervention, which

00;29;45;11 - 00;30;10;18
Janet Harris
I think is part of what Restore Hope has been doing. Some of the outcomes that I can see, and this is true for most of the collaboratives that we work with, is just the incredible connection that's made between people. We have people in the system of corrections and community corrections that may not have known each other before, may not have sat around the table before these convenings, and now they're having really thoughtful conversations about how they can work together.

00;30;10;29 - 00;30;40;25
Janet Harris
Because again, it is a system that works to to try to reunite people with their families and with their communities. And until you can get people to connect and know each other and build trusting relationships, reform is really hard to accomplish. So I think that connection has been a huge output or outcome of this work. I also can see that the working groups have really coalesced around some ideas that are very important to the future of this system.

00;30;41;01 - 00;31;03;18
Janet Harris
Alternative sentencing is one that we're going to be looking at over the next couple of days, but we have also the IR3 has worked on public awareness campaigns and communication with the citizenry and policy issues that we now need to be addressed for corrections reform. So I think all of that is is very important. And I'm seeing some movement there over the last couple of years of us getting together.

00;31;04;23 - 00;31;22;28
Charles Newsom
All right. So I can travel headed towards the right way in that direction and it’s going to take a collective whole to get it sent, just to get it right. And the right people have to be talking to the right people and the right data has to be presented.

00;31;23;13 - 00;31;52;18
Paul Chapman
That's right. You know, and then you know, why it's so hard is because the the problems that that the individual has, the litigant has, why they're in court are varied. It could be it could be around housing. It's probably going to be around substance abuse, job skills. We found that almost half of the folks that we were able to collect, there were about 540 clients over several years in district court that we collected some data on.

00;31;52;23 - 00;32;10;02
Paul Chapman
Almost half didn't have a GED at the time that we met them. And so, you know, and you need a GED to be able to to go to a lot of these vocational programs. They required GED before you go. So even if you wanted to go to the truck driving program, you didn't have the money to pay for it.

00;32;10;19 - 00;32;12;17
Paul Chapman
You got to get through GED to get there.

00;32;12;19 - 00;32;32;15
Charles Newsom
Right. And for the people who are beneficiaries of these type of programs and stuff, they're going to have to understand that this is going to be an uphill battle. It's just not going to be no get in and get out. You might have to put in that 12 months, that 16 months instead of going to do 40 days in jail or six months in jail.

00;32;32;24 - 00;32;41;15
Charles Newsom
These like that, so the processes, it's going to be lengthy, but if you’re willing to put in the work you can achieve what you're trying to get.

00;32;42;15 - 00;32;53;03
Paul Chapman
Well the judges and the providers that are doing community diversion right now know that the the litigants motivation usually is to not have to pay... they can't pay $1,000.

00;32;53;03 - 00;32;53;10
Charles Newsom
Right.

00;32;53;20 - 00;33;16;29
Paul Chapman
They don't want to do any jail time. And so they're just looking for some way not to do those things. But what is found is once you start putting some success together, then the individual starts to make some real changes that are substantive and and are likely to prevent future, but, but you're right, you know, most of the time it's not an overnight issue that got you there.

00;33;17;15 - 00;33;27;08
Paul Chapman
And therefore, you know, if you don't have a GED and you've got a substance abuse problem and, you know, that's a that's a pretty lengthy journey for you right now.

00;33;27;16 - 00;33;35;21
Charles Newsom
You mentioned the idea of a pilot program. What’s that look like? What’s the idea I mean, what's up with that?

00;33;36;01 - 00;34;02;24
Paul Chapman
You know, ideally it'd be ten courts for two years. I think would give us the chance to not only track the data, but but to learn in community and to be able to take all of that data back to the legislature and show the impact to the community. That would be the ideal, I think. And we're going to try the next step to trying to get that done is going up to the Winthrop Rockefeller Institute in March of 23.

00;34;02;29 - 00;34;09;15
Paul Chapman
We've got eight district court judges, attorneys and providers to actually discuss exactly what that would look like.

00;34;09;15 - 00;34;16;01
Charles Newsom
Okay, well, maybe we can get some of that on the Smart Justice Podcast and show the public how that’s going to work.

00;34;16;01 - 00;34;16;27
Paul Chapman
Stay tuned.

00;34;16;27 - 00;34;26;01
Charles Newsom
Stay tuned.

00;34;26;01 - 00;34;41;03
Charles Newsom
Thank you for going upstream with us in season two. Look for us later this year in season three as we discuss the issues of foster care and adoption.

00;34;41;03 - 00;35;25;19
Ed Lowry
Thanks to our guests, Representative Cindy Crawford, Attorney General Tim Griffin and Janet Harris. And thanks to Arkansas Churches for Life for sponsoring. Musical credits include “Voyages” by Belladonna, “Tangled” by Aaron Sprinkle, “The Simple Truth” by Dr. Delight, “Dialouges” by Rest and Settle. Music was licensed through soundstripe.com. Smart Justice is a work of Restore Hope. Learn more at smartjustice.org.