So What Works? A Way Forward.

All communities work on criminal justice and child welfare issues but few have real systems change. You may have the right people and organizations, but if you don't get 5 things right you'll not make the change you're working so hard to make. In the season one final episode we discuss the impact a growing number of Arkansas communities are having by implementing the collective impact methodology of system change.  

Season 1 of SmartJustice: To improve outcomes in complex problems around child welfare, incarceration, and crime we journey upstream to examine the Family as the institution we should   
Interviewed:
Fort Smith PD Chief Danny Baker
Circuit Court Judge Shanice Johnson
Restore Hope Case Manager Courtnee Harlan
Restore Hope A.D. of Community Development Karen Phillips
100 Families White Co Coordinator Dana Baker
Empowering My Environment cofounder Charles Newsom
Restore Hope Executive Director Paul Chapman

Narrator Charles Newsom
Producer Renie Rule
Producer Ed Lowry

"A change of perspective is worth 80 IQ points." - Alan Kay
Through SmartJustice we explore issues from new perspectives in pursuit of better communities and better outcomes.

Please consider a donation to support work like this in the future. Thank you!
https://smartjustice.supercast.com

Transcript

00;00;01;05 - 00;00;33;05
Danny Baker
We need to view our profession as more than just law enforcement. And I think that, you know, for a long time, that's that's kind of been a crutch for us because we say, well, we're just law enforcement. And so all these other issues that we're talking about, mental health and drug abuse and foster kids and foster care, you know, that's somebody else's issue that they need to deal with. We get paid to enforce the law. But the reality is that the people expect more from us than that.

00;00;33;16 - 00;00;36;19
Charles Newsom
Danny Baker, police chief of Fort Smith, Arkansas.

00;00;36;27 - 00;00;59;28
Danny Baker
The one that comes to mind every time we start talking about this was a homeless lady and somebody called on her because she was out on the side of the road panhandling. And so one of our patrol officers responded and spoke with this lady and met with her and and recognized that this was somebody that, you know, actually needed some help and might be able to respond to the intervention.

00;00;59;28 - 00;01;34;05
Danny Baker
And so they called our crisis intervention unit out who came out and met with the lady. And from that contact within 8 hours, they had this lady in her apartment with a monthly rent, had her with a cell phone, a working cell phone, and had her signed up for several job interviews in town. And that was only possible because they knew who to contact to make all these things happen, who they could reach out to for the housing, and who they could reach out to to get the cell phone turned on, who they could reach out to, to get the jobs.

00;01;34;27 - 00;02;04;08
Danny Baker
And this lady's, I mean, she's a employed, gainfully employed. Has her own place, her own apartment complex. And she's not living on the streets, now. That is a very visceral example of how quickly it can, you can impact somebody in your community. It doesn't it doesn't have to be a generation before we start seeing results. It's happening now. You know, it's one at a time.

00;02;05;15 - 00;02;12;06
Charles Newsom
This is season one episode six of The Smart Justice Podcast - Finding a Way Forward.

00;02;14;22 - 00;02;21;12
Paul Chapman
Crime and punishment are hot topics. Are there solutions different than what we're hearing about at a national level?

00;02;21;12 - 00;02;28;21
Andrew Baker
We led the nation in all the wrong categories, especially when it came to child welfare and recidivism. Like, why are we dead last?

00;02;28;21 - 00;02;36;03
Kirk Lane
Now we're seeing illicit fentanyl as the number one drug threat in our state backed very closely with methamphetamine.

00;02;36;04 - 00;02;42;27
Misha Martin
If you really want to focus on the kids, stop acting like you're going to use foster care to punish parents.

00;02;43;01 - 00;02;48;15
Paul Chapman
There is a different way to approach justice that has better return on investment.

00;02;48;16 - 00;02;55;16
Misha Martin
Working with families on the prevention side is more cost effective than placing them in foster care.

00;02;55;16 - 00;03;04;01
Paul Chapman
That seems to strengthen both law enforcement and courts and tie that together with community resources.

00;03;04;10 - 00;03;11;29
Andrew Baker
Justice has to be served for civil society to exist, but the place of mercy falls in the hands of the people

00;03;11;29 - 00;03;22;21
Paul Chapman
And then track the impact to communities and better outcomes. And we're calling this approach smart justice.

00;03;22;21 - 00;03;41;13
Ed Lowry
Smart justice is a work of restore hope and partner organizations. Restore Hope is a software and services organization that helps communities achieve better outcomes for justice and child welfare efforts. Smart Justice is focused on optimizing the system by improving the relationships among its parts.

00;03;44;12 - 00;04;09;12
Paul Chapman
Hey, welcome back to this last episode in the first season of Smart Justice, where we've been talking about the family and the impact of incarceration and substance abuse, trauma and child welfare, and the centrality really of our focus needing to be on strengthening and preserving family. So I'm here with my friend Rock, who's been narrating this this season.

00;04;09;12 - 00;04;32;15
Paul Chapman
You've been doing a bang up job, man in there and good right now. And so we want to sit down and have a talk at the end of this. You know, all communities spend a lot of money and a lot of time, and they have smart people working on these on these problems, but they're just so dang complex that it's hard to actually start to really have population level change.

00;04;32;15 - 00;04;43;22
Paul Chapman
So and so let's talk a little bit from your perspective on on these issues and what you've seen specifically here in Little Rock.

00;04;44;06 - 00;05;02;09
Charles Newsom
What I've been getting from a Smart Justice is going into every bit and pieces of what the community is going through what they need, how they need to go about getting it and the services that they need to go back and get. What did you call it? A collective.

00;05;02;18 - 00;05;03;28
Paul Chapman
Collective impact, yeah.

00;05;04;12 - 00;05;10;16
Charles Newsom
Which you showed me had to do with data and software and things like that. Could you go more inside with it?

00;05;11;08 - 00;05;41;00
Paul Chapman
Yeah. You know, all communities are dealing with crime and child welfare issues and then our area, the subjects we're interested in are justice involved families. That's child welfare, district court, circuit courts, parole, probation and and so that's our target client and we want to improve outcomes from reducing incarceration and the need for foster care. So we need to put a group together, that's stage one is you got to get a group of the right folks together that will agree on at least one goal,

00;05;41;00 - 00;05;41;24
Charles Newsom
That's bingo.

00;05;42;03 - 00;06;29;23
Paul Chapman
And so that group has to say we're coming together for this goal. Two is you're going to now have to define how you judge failure or success. So a set of measurements that collectively you'll say we're winning or losing. For justice involved families what a community is going to need that it probably doesn't have you're going to need to put together your coalition. We call it an alliance, and have a coordinator that that serves that alliance. You're going to need technology that allows communication cross organization. And thirdly, someone that's going to be where ever the target client is gathered in a court, in a parole probation office, at jail prior to release, the DCFS office,

00;06;30;00 - 00;06;55;14
Paul Chapman
And you meet the clients in partnership with the agency and introduce those clients now and you assess what they need, take case plans, and you make sure they get connected to it because that alliance is there providing all those services. So being able to get enough people to agree on a goal and then start executing on that goal, right, is, is what's needed.

00;06;55;14 - 00;07;20;11
Paul Chapman
And so we saw in Fort Smith when we first went there in 2016 that had the highest conviction to incarceration ratio of any county in Arkansas, conviction to incarceration. Fort Smith. That was in 2016. Okay. They had the highest number of kids in foster care. They had 800 kids in care in 2017. That was one of 34 kids in that county, were in foster care.

00;07;20;21 - 00;07;46;07
Paul Chapman
And so they were in real deep trouble. And that was playing out. It was playing out in the schools. It was playing out in the jail. It was playing out in the courts and in parole, probation. Everyone was stressed out and didn't have enough of of of assets to be able to deploy to fix the problem. But enough folks came along and started working together.

00;07;46;07 - 00;08;07;23
Paul Chapman
And then when they started working that way, giving options to courts and to law enforcement and to the parole probation office, a parole probation office, Kent Cam was the area manager at the time, he had some space in the back. Goodwill was there, we were there. The Guidance Center was there. Harbor House had folks there. Adult Ed was there all inside the parole probation office.

00;08;07;23 - 00;08;12;27
Paul Chapman
Right. And that was just a brilliant way of doing kind of collective impact.

00;08;13;14 - 00;08;23;16
Charles Newsom
Paul caught up with Danny Baker, police chief of Fort Smith, Arkansas, to discuss his department's innovative approach and the importance of collective impact.

00;08;24;14 - 00;08;34;11
Paul Chapman
In Fort Smith you all doing some very innovative things. And so, you know, we've talked about the problems with drugs and incarceration and child welfare. What are some of the things that you all are doing to.

00;08;34;19 - 00;09;04;15
Danny Baker
You know, we've talked we've talked many times about how important it is for everybody to work together, the collective impact that we can have on a problem. Well, it started out for us initially as probably mostly an attempt to reduce the the jail population. We saw it as an opportunity to move beyond that and use it as a means to improve our community and to improve people's lives in our community so that we don't have to put them in jail.

00;09;04;26 - 00;09;43;21
Danny Baker
And that's really what we're hoping to accomplish, is to move people, you know, to a point where they don't need our services. We want to move them to a point of stabilization so that they become more productive members of our community and contributing members of our community instead of consumers. You know, I think in law enforcement, where we're kind of uniquely poised to be able to implement things, we are right there where the problems are exhibiting themselves the most and we have the the best opportunity to intervene. And unfortunately, intervention for us has always been just to arrest somebody and take them to jail.

00;09;44;14 - 00;09;53;03
Paul Chapman
You've done several things as a department, so you've got this. One of the strategies to keep people out of jail is this mobile booking unit.

00;09;53;14 - 00;10;19;00
Danny Baker
Under Arkansas law, previously for class-A Misdemeanors, they had to be booked at the detention facility. And so shoplifting is a perfect example. And so we've taken the officer off the street for more than an hour and also incurred the liability that comes with, you know, having someone in custody and transporting them from, you know, point A to the to the jail.

00;10;19;00 - 00;10;51;18
Danny Baker
And so if all we're going to do is going to be photographing and fingerprint them, why can't we do that in the field? We had to get some changes made to the Arkansas legislation to allow that to happen. And we did. And that's just that's just one of the things that we've done, the pre-arrest diversion program, giving the officer the ability to, if an individual qualifies in certain crimes and willing to do so gives them the opportunity to to seek treatment or, you know, go to the program in lieu of going to jail.

00;10;51;18 - 00;11;23;09
Danny Baker
And that's actually accomplished two things, because, one, it gives the officers some discretion. It gives them the ability to exercise their discretion. Another tool, it's also pave the way for us now with the again, the legislative changes that were made at the same time allowing for sobering facilities in the state of Arkansas. And so now our officers are used to the idea of taking somebody to a treatment facility and releasing them without criminal charges in lieu of taking somebody to jail.

00;11;23;19 - 00;11;48;26
Danny Baker
You know, they still do the paperwork. They still complete the paperwork just as if they were making an arrest. But they they don't turn it in to the the courts. It doesn't become an active criminal case. If the person goes through the treatment, then that incident is is done away with. It's not going to go any further. They don't they don't if they don't follow through, then they have the officer have the option to go through the prosecutor and file.

00;11;48;26 - 00;11;49;07
Paul Chapman
The charge.

00;11;49;13 - 00;12;07;12
Danny Baker
From get the charges filed. And, you know, it's not like we're again, it's not we're we're not just walking away from the problem and we're not saying that we're going to we're just going to stop arresting people. We're looking for alternatives and giving the officers tools and the ability to, you know, to look for other options.

00;12;07;25 - 00;12;22;03
Paul Chapman
So, yeah, we're doing all these things. Chief, what would you say to the person that would think that you might be jeopardizing kind of public safety and crime? What are the statistics showing in Fort Smith?

00;12;22;03 - 00;13;11;02
Danny Baker
Well, what we're seeing is, is exactly the opposite. We're having a negative crime trend where we see very much positive upward trends and in a lot of other areas. And, you know that that is paired with our reduction in incarceration. I mean, but simply put, we're arresting less people and we're having less crime. The impact our community is just it's immense. And it's you know, you see it almost immediately in the in the turn around out there. And I got to say this. I mean, it's not again, I can't say this enough. It's not just an either or proposition. We don't just stop arresting people. It's diversion done. Right. There has to be something else. There has to be a support system.

00;13;11;02 - 00;13;42;00
Danny Baker
There has to be people in place that are willing to spend the time and effort to work with these people, to see them beyond, you know, the situation that they're in as opposed to other services within the system and within our community as they see that that law enforcement is trying to work in a different manner, that empowers them then to to be more proactive in what they do.

00;13;42;20 - 00;14;06;15
Danny Baker
One of the first things that happened when we implemented our crisis intervention unit, I had a good vision for what I expected the officers to do and, you know, the interactions that I hoped that they would be making on the street. But within 24 hours of announcing to the public that we were doing this, we had people holding their hands up all over the community saying, here we are, this is what we do.

00;14;06;15 - 00;14;20;27
Danny Baker
These are the services that we can provide. How can we help? And so the unit itself became as much a network and a hub for resources within our community as it did a crime fighting tool or a crisis intervention team.

00;14;21;28 - 00;14;35;11
Paul Chapman
On resource like your mobile booking unit and progressive program Pre-arrest Diversion Program, does that costing more in time or money or.

00;14;35;11 - 00;14;57;18
Danny Baker
Oh, no. I mean, you have an initial investment in, you know, with the mobile booking station or the hardware for that, but its overall cost is less. You know, there's just a lot of positives when we can do it, when we can use that alternative, it saves it saves the taxpayers a lot of money. It saves a lot of time.

00;14;57;18 - 00;15;03;06
Danny Baker
It keeps the officers on the street so they can do those things that folks expect police officers to be doing.

00;15;03;13 - 00;15;32;25
Paul Chapman
So kind of in summary, Chief, what I'm hearing you say is you've got various strategies to that you're carrying out. And what you've seen now over a few years is a significant drop in incarcerations in the jail and and crime is is still going down. Yes. And so your public safety is better and the taxpayers are better, and the citizens are getting the help that they need that may have.

00;15;33;10 - 00;15;42;18
Danny Baker
If everybody is better off, everybody and our officers have more time to do the things that folks expect police officers to be doing.

00;15;42;27 - 00;15;45;01
Paul Chapman
What's kind of your vision for policing?

00;15;45;28 - 00;16;09;05
Danny Baker
Well, that that it is policing. That we want to first of all, we want to work ourselves out of a job. You know, that is our vision, probably one of the most powerful tenets of that vision is that we use every encounter with another human being as an opportunity to improve them. And we're improved in like manner. I think that we're making our community safer.

00;16;09;05 - 00;16;43;19
Danny Baker
I mean, the numbers show that just the the trust and the legitimacy that's built within the community and particularly segments of community that historically have had a lot of distrust for law enforcement, because we have addressed every problem in those communities the same way those, you know, those aggressive, traditional policing tactics. And we find and, you know, where we take a different approach, where we go in and we set up and they give food away and a parking lot of a high crime apartment complex.

00;16;44;07 - 00;17;21;06
Danny Baker
We don't ask questions. We don't check for warrants. We don't you know, we just we're just there to be a presence in the community and to let them see that we really care about them. Results of that is cooperation from those those communities when we do have a sense that people are more ready to talk to us, so, you know, ready and willing to come forward and say, you know, if they saw somebody do something or the result of that is that those that are predisposed to do those really bad things, they think twice now about preying on this neighborhood because they know they're they have a good relationship.

00;17;21;08 - 00;17;53;04
Danny Baker
Yeah. And and we know that we know people by their first name. So they know our officers by their first names and this idea of collective impact and people working together and being able to maximize the resources that each that each person has and their passion, you know, each each organization or individual, they have a passion for something. And so being able to harness that and bring that together for the collective good in the community, we see that happening in a big way in Fort Smith.

00;17;53;10 - 00;18;21;24
Paul Chapman
So part of this collective impact strategy, actually, you've got to have the right people in that coalition and you cannot leave the communities that are impacted most by justice, can't leave them out of the community, have to include the voice and the perspective. And so what's so great about our work here in Central Arkansas is that we've got partners like you and the other guys in Empowering My Environment.

00;18;22;02 - 00;18;28;14
Paul Chapman
So let's talk a little bit about, you know, Empowering My Environment, what you all do. But how did all that come about?

00;18;30;07 - 00;18;56;03
Charles Newsom
Empowering My Environment - four former gang members who collectively come together, they just want to want to stop the violence. We want to stop the nonsence in our neighborhood that we helped create. So if you mess something up, you have to go back and clean up behind yourself. Also empower my environment. It's just it's about if the thought processes, how your mind is, if you empower your mind, you can empower everything around you.

00;18;56;26 - 00;19;22;24
Charles Newsom
We stump down on the concrete, we go into the community, and we ask our community what we need. We talk to the to the young gang members and things like that from our community because we know what they went through. Because sometime a lot of the little homies, they had a problem, cause momma didn’t come home last night or Daddy just went to prison, or daughter, she just got molested, or he just got shot up and beat up and he wants retaliation.

00;19;22;29 - 00;19;47;10
Charles Newsom
We have to go. We have to teach critical thinking and things like. The things that we didn't have. And then also on a day here comes 100 Families and Restore Hope again, whatever they’re asking for we’re able to lead and provide those resources for them. The counceling, the helping with this mother. She may want a job, might help her find a job.

00;19;47;23 - 00;20;11;06
Charles Newsom
Where those kids gonna be while I’m at work? Day care vouchers. Everything the the resources are there. So if that's how it works and we took our thoughts and ideas, put it with your thoughts and ideas, and we came together with a package and well, Zone 1 right now is one of the safest neighborhoods.

00;20;11;19 - 00;20;12;24
Paul Chapman
Where in zone one?

00;20;12;24 - 00;20;14;00
Charles Newsom
South end community.

00;20;14;06 - 00;20;15;03
Paul Chapman
South end community.

00;20;15;07 - 00;20;39;22
Charles Newsom
Yes. And I've been proud to say that, you know, it took a lot of work took a couple of years. But we one of the safest neighborhoods, you know, we have big water park. We’re steady building, getting the Boys Club build back up, just going step by step. We trying to get a resource center over there. So everything that my community needs, we able to provide that service for them

00;20;40;13 - 00;21;03;28
Paul Chapman
You know, I've seen, Rock, in the last several months that, you know, you'll have your own show, you've got a Facebook show. Y'all should check that out. Empowering My Environment on Facebook. But you've got in the in the gatherings, in the events that you all are doing, you're attracting more and more people that are thinking exactly the way that y'all were thinking.

00;21;03;28 - 00;21;10;23
Paul Chapman
So you're you're growing in the number of leaders that are wanting to make a difference.

00;21;11;08 - 00;21;16;06
Charles Newsom
Michael's the city council. SANDERS Michael.

00;21;16;18 - 00;21;18;26
Paul Chapman
Michael Sanders. Yeah. In charge of community programs here.

00;21;19;22 - 00;21;44;13
Charles Newsom
Is yeah they're and he also he reaches out a anything you guys need things like this so a collective impact that you’re talking about, and like you said, the more people that we get out and to come in, the more we can change our community. Judge Shanice Johnson, man, she supports everything we do. We thank her. She's she's highly involved in the community.

00;21;44;13 - 00;21;50;15
Charles Newsom
She hitting that concrete, you see, she's coming out to the community. She's listening to what the community needs.

00;21;51;01 - 00;22;18;18
Shanice Johnson
What we need to do as a community. We just need to just remind ourselves that it's not just one one. It's not one entity can save you. The government can't save anyone. This one community provider it's doing great work, can't be the one that's solely responsible. Like it's it's a joint effort. And I know something that I recognize even on my when I campaigned to be judge most individuals when it came to be a juvenile judge were excited they cared about the topic and issue.

00;22;18;18 - 00;22;43;16
Shanice Johnson
But I did run into a few individuals who said, I don't have kids, I don't care, you know, like, what does it have to do with me? I'm like, well, if these kids are not getting what they need, you know, that increases crime, you know? But you know, and the quality of your life, all the different things that impact the ability to safely walk down your street and feel like you can you know, you can have your kids play outside and not be be harmed.

00;22;43;16 - 00;22;51;04
Shanice Johnson
Like you have to be concerned about our youth because our youth are the future and our present, their present and the future.

00;22;51;22 - 00;23;09;18
Paul Chapman
Talk to me a little bit about so. If so, what's that actually like? What are you hearing from members in South End Community? You know, in the changes that you've been at it for two years, you have some stories about how folks are perceiving changes.

00;23;09;18 - 00;23;23;24
Charles Newsom
Man Oh, right now we're producing a lot of truckers coming out of the community. You know, the CDL we have. Restore Hope, 100 Families, we have a CDL school. We can see you get you a CDL license.

00;23;23;25 - 00;23;26;14
Paul Chapman
Yeah, that's in partnership with the Little Rock Workforce Board.

00;23;26;25 - 00;23;28;22
Charles Newsom
What’s our boys name over there to workforce.

00;23;29;10 - 00;23;34;24
Paul Chapman
WJ Monocle and his folks over there. Right. And then CDL academies over by the jail.

00;23;34;24 - 00;23;49;08
Charles Newsom
By the jail house, you know, so we're able to take a lot of young men, especially a lot of young men in a our community has been in prison. As a matter of fact, I got one today. I see. And get him signed up. So they're able to come out of prison.

00;23;49;15 - 00;23;50;19
Paul Chapman
They're getting jobs?

00;23;50;19 - 00;24;14;24
Charles Newsom
Man, they’re getting them off the top. And it's a big impact on their family. So now they you know, how they say, less bullets, more jobs, right? So everybody's around there working and we get... As long as we get all them young man, you know, work and the young ladies and they're working, man. Hey, no telling what can become of your community. And Paul, you let you allow us to go out in the community and do what we do.

00;24;15;11 - 00;24;21;29
Charles Newsom
And it's not inexpensive. It takes little bit of money to do what we do. Could you elaborate on the how do you.

00;24;23;01 - 00;24;49;21
Paul Chapman
Yeah, I think it's a good spend. So we've got a grant that allows us to go out and and you know, and y'all are offering help and connecting folks to opportunities. Just from what you were saying, that's a good spend. That's an investment in the community to prevent crime and to help folks that are coming back from incarceration, to get hooked up with jobs so that they can take care of their families and they're buying groceries and spending money and pursuing happiness.

00;24;49;21 - 00;25;11;18
Paul Chapman
Here's kind of the thought process behind Smart Justice is that at every point we need to be strengthening families, and so we need to get upstream of incarceration and foster care because we're always going to need, as you've said, some people, we just need to lock up for a time and maybe a long time, depending on what they're doing.

00;25;12;20 - 00;25;38;24
Paul Chapman
Those are options. Those are interventions that we have in our just carrying out of justice. But they're very, very it's the most expensive option. It doesn't work most of the time in preventing, you know, it's about 50% effective in preventing future crime, right. Currently. And so and foster care is very, very expensive taking child into care. You might think that's an easy solution to what looks like a very complex set of issues.

00;25;38;25 - 00;25;39;04
Charles Newsom
Right.

00;25;39;09 - 00;25;42;17
Paul Chapman
Which they are. But it's very, very expensive.

00;25;43;04 - 00;27;10;26
Courtnee Harlan
My name is Courtney Harlan. I used to be a foster care supervisor with Children and family services between 2018 and 2021. I am now the case manager for Restore Hope in conjunction with the Governor's 100 Families Initiative. I don't believe the community, like not everybody, understands how expensive foster care is. You know, you're talking about just the initial removal, like first 24 hours of one child could be equivalent to thousands of dollars of taxpayers money besides, you know, money issue and stuff and how expensive that is if you think about how much money is invested into foster care, think about the things that it would cost to help stabilize the family. Say the reason why children are in care. It was because of environmental neglect and the parent could have used just $1,000 to put down a deposit on a nice, newer apartment. The money that could have been used to help fund that instead is being used to help cover a caseworker on call doing the removal and paying for medical fees for the intake, initial physical and then finding housing and stuff for that child, you know, foster care placement and stuff, really.

00;27;10;26 - 00;27;35;09
Courtnee Harlan
It's just, you know, trying to refocus like what we can use certain funding for. And I can tell you just from experience, it would cost less to help parents out initially and keep those families together than it is to try to bring kids into foster care. We can support these parents if we can surround them and support them.

00;27;35;09 - 00;28;05;15
Courtnee Harlan
You know, whether it's helping them recover or get employment, whatever their barriers may be, we're putting, you know, that productive citizen out in society, somebody who can contribute also towards the community. It takes a lot to rebuild these families when they've encountered a foster care case or, you know, even any type of case with DCFS, just because that that's another trauma that they're facing.

00;28;05;15 - 00;28;27;16
Courtnee Harlan
And so I like to tell people, imagine you're meeting these people at their lowest of low. You know, maybe they're in a position where they haven't made good decisions, but, you know, they're struggling. They're trying to get help for them and their kids. You know, they're already feeling at their lowest. They're feeling that they can't take care of their kids.

00;28;27;17 - 00;28;52;04
Courtnee Harlan
Now imagine their kids are removed. Now, you've taken them even further than what they probably already feel. You know, you're they're at their lowest now. They're even they're more into the ground at this point. I think having the community surround them and build them back up, yes, you'll get a productive citizen out of them. But I just always like to say, imagine if you were in their shoes, how would you want to be treated?

00;28;52;12 - 00;29;08;08
Courtnee Harlan
You know, we've got to start where they're at, which is really, really low and try to rebuild them back up and it takes some time. And so it's going to take more than just a caseworker with DCFS. It's going to take the community to surround them and all these providers.

00;29;09;06 - 00;30;01;12
Paul Chapman
We always have to take that long term look, I think because the things that are going on in our community right now are partially a result of what we were doing ten, 15 years ago. If we take kind of the human aspect out or any relationships that we may have with people that have struggle with substance abuse or incarceration and just look fiscally at it, then what we're trying to show is that doing things this way, intervening, giving every possible option for someone to to stop, to get help, to take the off ramp into the debt instead of descending on into multiple areas of crisis, creating more victims, getting involved deeper in the justice system. There needs to be off ramps all the way. Right. And that's good money spent.

00;30;01;16 - 00;30;02;08
Charles Newsom
Right.

00;30;02;08 - 00;30;30;18
Paul Chapman
And as we have found from from the data of law enforcement officers that are keeping the data and doing things in this way from community members, from service providers, is we start to become more efficient. And we actually long term start saving money like that. Right, because incarceration is expensive, foster care is very expensive per day.

00;30;30;27 - 00;30;48;07
Charles Newsom
So I take this one child and he or she is in foster care for five or ten years. You get this father incarcerated for five, ten years, then you get this mother. This is more expensive than sending a having a program that could send the child to college.

00;30;48;07 - 00;30;50;01
Paul Chapman
Yeah, no, college would be cheaper.

00;30;50;04 - 00;30;52;03
Charles Newsom
It would be cheaper. Yeah, right.

00;30;52;17 - 00;30;54;06
Paul Chapman
Yeah. Trucking school's a lot cheaper than that.

00;30;54;15 - 00;30;59;04
Charles Newsom
Right? Much so it is better to invest into these programs. Prevention.

00;30;59;26 - 00;31;18;02
Paul Chapman
Yeah, yeah. That's the mindset. I think that that we're trying to make the argument for is let's invest in families and find out what the needs are. And when things start to... we need to move, find places far enough upstream that we can offer help to people. And like y'all, we're doing you're in the community offering help.

00;31;18;06 - 00;31;18;15
Charles Newsom
Right.

00;31;18;26 - 00;31;23;25
Paul Chapman
Before the wheels come off. That's wonderful money spent.

00;31;24;01 - 00;31;24;13
Charles Newsom
Right?

00;31;24;26 - 00;31;35;18
Paul Chapman
We don't have victims. We don't have the trauma impacted on the kids. Folks, get what they need and then we prevent a lot of this downstream, downstream, expensive tragedy.

00;31;35;21 - 00;31;36;03
Charles Newsom
Right.

00;31;36;19 - 00;32;05;21
Paul Chapman
That has low, low possible, you know, positive outcomes or lower possible outcomes. And so that's really it. That's what I think that we, the people of Arkansas, need to work on for the next 5 to 10 years is putting in at every level that we can find when someone's in trouble connection to resource because we're already paying for the resources they're in our communities.

00;32;05;21 - 00;32;10;07
Charles Newsom
Dana Baker, director of 100 Families of White County, Arkansas.

00;32;11;02 - 00;32;31;22
Dana Baker
So here in White County we're really fortunate. We have a really strong partnership with DCFS and their families can be referred here after the children have been removed or they can be referred here before the children have been removed. If there's a a protective services case, they'll often refer them and they have a case plan for those cases as well.

00;32;32;00 - 00;32;51;16
Dana Baker
It can be cleaning up your home, getting transportation, getting mental health and substance abuse counseling, and leaving the kids in the home. And while they get those resources, there may have been a phone call made. The report made it easier for us and they went out and checked on what was going on and realized the kids were safe.

00;32;51;16 - 00;33;12;08
Dana Baker
But yeah, that family does need some help and so they refer them here as well, and we start connecting them to the same resources that would connect a family to it. Their kids have been removed. Our executive director, Paul has an analogy that he talks about. When you're building a house, you don't put the roof on first. You're going to build the foundation and make sure that it's strong and that it's sturdy as well.

00;33;12;08 - 00;33;41;18
Dana Baker
So we the first thing we do is look at mental health and substance abuse and crisis situations. So if mental health and substance abuse are not addressed, then employment, education, housing, transportation, all of those things are not going to be able to take place. So we look at mental health and substance abuse first and and make sure that they have adequate housing and food and we want to find the best fit.

00;33;41;18 - 00;34;04;24
Dana Baker
So we have lots of different partners here in White County for mental health and substance abuse. The case managers are very well versed in what agencies offer. What what do they specialize in? Is it family therapy? Is it trauma therapy? Is there brain spotting that they need whatever that family we feel like they may need? After our initial assessment, we connect them to the best fit.

00;34;04;24 - 00;34;27;12
Dana Baker
We'll look at what insurance they have. If they don't have insurance, we'll get them insurance. What? Where is where services located? Are they located in their town if they don't have transportation? We want to make sure that the connection we're making is a viable connection and not a frustrating connection for that family. If we make that connection, we want to make sure that it's the best one and that it's going to work for that family.

00;34;27;18 - 00;34;51;18
Dana Baker
Once that's taken care of, then we can work on education, employment, transportation, legal issues, child care. All of those things are kind of like the framework. And then the roof of that house, I feel like, would be long term employment, a career, getting the kids back home, buying a car, having money in the bank, getting off public assistance.

00;34;51;24 - 00;35;20;00
Paul Chapman
Folks in crisis or that need help are trying to navigate in our communities. They're trying to navigate and find help. They're miserable and they don't want to be that way any longer. But but they just need someone like you that can communicate with them that they will build some trust with that you can start to go, you don't need the job program right now because you can't you can't pass drug tests.

00;35;20;00 - 00;35;29;20
Paul Chapman
Let's get you in. Let's get you cleaned up right now. We're going to. But that's not it, right? Clean’s not the goal. Right? It's a step along the goal so that we can get you.

00;35;30;02 - 00;35;30;06
Charles Newsom
To.

00;35;30;06 - 00;35;30;19
Paul Chapman
Career.

00;35;31;09 - 00;35;48;20
Charles Newsom
Career’s the goal. Familie is the goal, familie is the goal and career is the goal. So how do we come together as a collective whole and what can we do? What would be your advice to the to the higher up, to the legislators, to the aldermans, to the judges? What would be your advice to them?

00;35;49;08 - 00;36;02;07
Paul Chapman
The direct answer would be you have to realize that that you can't change the law and change, you know, this - justice involvement. But you're probably going to need to change some laws.

00;36;02;19 - 00;36;03;07
Charles Newsom
Right? Right.

00;36;03;14 - 00;36;22;15
Paul Chapman
You're not going to be able just to offer more substance abuse or mental health and change this. But you're probably going to need both of those. More of those. You're not going to be able just to put more money in the jobs program or in community college, you know, and change your your child welfare outcome. But you're going to need school.

00;36;22;26 - 00;36;23;02
Charles Newsom
Right.

00;36;23;07 - 00;36;51;04
Paul Chapman
And so what we need to understand is it's the coordination of those things I was just talking about and the proper sequencing and helping people access those things that that's you have to solve for the coordination and then you can start to look at where the gaps exist in a particular community. And so that's kind of big meta story is you got to get your coordination down before you start looking at the program level.

00;36;52;09 - 00;37;16;26
Paul Chapman
Now at the program level, you need to get your appropriate leaders, the right judges and the mayor and and your parole probation and your area manager for DCFS and and the substance abuse folks and start talking about what's going on in the community. You bring some data. Here's how many people return from prison to to our county last year.

00;37;17;06 - 00;37;27;21
Paul Chapman
Here's recidivism rates. Here's how many people are in foster care. What's that look like against next year? And so you're looking at data which helped you keep it out of your particular opinion.

00;37;28;07 - 00;37;32;03
Charles Newsom
Karen Phillips, Director of the 100 Families Initiative.

00;37;32;11 - 00;38;02;01
Karen Phillips
So one of the very exciting statistics that we like to share is the fact that whenever a family has these additional supports, which means that they have the support of multiple organizations in their community, and we are walking alongside the DCFS caseworkers to help the families accomplish the task that are at hand. Then the reunification chances actually double.

00;38;02;10 - 00;38;36;07
Karen Phillips
So in the state of Arkansas, only about 42 or 43% of families are reunited with their children after they are removed and placed into foster care. But whenever a 100 families case manager is involved in the helps alongside the community and providing all those additional kind of family supports and and advocacy and hope building and all of those things that a case manager would provide in the initiative.

00;38;36;19 - 00;39;02;07
Karen Phillips
It is 84%. So 84% of those children were able to go back home to their parents and do it safely. And that is another thing is that we continue to work alongside those families after the DCFS case is closed. So we continue to to make sure that things are going well with their family, that they're working towards longer term goals.

00;39;02;07 - 00;39;27;22
Karen Phillips
So they may want to, even after they move to stability and their employment and housing and things like that, they might want to work towards a career and making even more money so that they can support their family in a in a more thriving and robust way. And so we continue to work with those families as long as they're willing to keep working towards their goals.

00;39;28;14 - 00;40;06;07
Paul Chapman
Again, to kind of summarize, is at a, you know, a state leadership level, legislator level state director in an agency, you've got to realize that that you can't do it alone. Right. But you're needed. You can. And definitely, if you've got that kind of power, you could prevent something good from happening. And so you're going to have to put these coalitions together and realizing that collective impact would be the way to go at a community level, start the vision meetings and trying to push towards understanding the problem before you start pitching solutions, right? You got to really start understanding what's happening going on.

00;40;06;07 - 00;40;36;25
Charles Newsom
Also, smart politician, you can't stop what's going on in the community. That community has to be able to stop what's going on in their community. A politician is supposed to assist the community on what they need, so it's not on the politician to stop it. It is on their community. to stop. Just assist that community with the resources and the things that they need. A lot of these problems would be solved.

00;40;37;06 - 00;40;56;20
Paul Chapman
You know, I think you're you're bringing up something that's really important. It's you know, I'm not a part of your community. Right. I know folks in your community, love folks in your community, don't live there. And so me trying to change things from from the outside, you know, is a much less effective way. I'm going we've got a trucking school.

00;40;56;20 - 00;41;15;19
Paul Chapman
I don't know how to offer trucking school too. Right. But you do. You know, the players, right. And if you don't know them, you know people that know them. And so, you know, how do you offer that help in that particular way? How do you motivate someone to get the help that they need and stop doing what they're doing? Because believing that there's a better future out there for themselves?

00;41;15;20 - 00;41;50;03
Charles Newsom
Well, and that's the way that we we've been taking it for the last two years. And it’s working. We're able to take those families straight to 100 Families and Restore Hope, and they're able to provide the services that people from our community need. And that's a blessing that I'm able to go into my community and bring them to help in the resources that they need. And so we we, we work from street team to counseling to work with. So it works. It's effective, it works.

00;41;50;10 - 00;42;09;14
Paul Chapman
Firstly, I'd say, y'all, we're doing an incredible job. And you know, once we met a couple of years ago and and y'all were saying, listen, we want to stop the violence. We know the community well. We know what needs to happen. We just need resource that started a really good partnership. And let me tell you what the outcomes are.

00;42;09;27 - 00;42;48;07
Paul Chapman
So we run this 100 Families program. There are six communities running it. We track a lot of data. But one of the data points is where do clients come from? So what's the source? Because we create these pipelines and in Little Rock is the only place where a significant number of of the clients are actually just coming because they're not compelled. They don't have a case. Right. Right. They're just coming from the street because you're out there working the community in the different ways you're at the football league, at the park, you know, talking with people and going, Oh, I didn't know that was going on. Hey, I got you. You know, I know where the help is for that thing.

00;42;48;07 - 00;43;10;16
Paul Chapman
And so you getting folks connected, which is so important because that's before it gets worse, the problem gets worse, right? You're helping people at the point of pain rather than letting them descend fully into, right, the dark hole. That positive outcome start to start to get to probably not going to be positive.

00;43;11;04 - 00;43;17;04
Charles Newsom
So Paul, at beginning of this Smart Justice we started out about family.

00;43;17;22 - 00;43;43;02
Paul Chapman
In justice issues and child welfare issues that the family is the thing that is most sacred in our discussions and that any action that we can do that is safe and appropriate we should do to keep that family together, to strengthen that family before bad happens or additional bad happens. Because then what we're going to get is we're going to get less crime.

00;43;43;20 - 00;43;59;16
Paul Chapman
We're going to get less spend on incarceration and foster care. We're going to get more jobs and more taxes and more people taking ownership in their community and having the capacity to do the kinds of pro-social things like Coach Little League team.

00;43;59;20 - 00;43;59;28
Charles Newsom
Right.

00;44;00;28 - 00;44;22;28
Paul Chapman
And if you're coaching a Little League team, then the kid's got some place to go. Why moms at work, right? They're playing baseball or football or whatever. And they're they're doing things that build into them and provide them with the opportunity to grow up and seek opportunities and to build significant relationships, maintain those things.

00;44;23;03 - 00;44;36;21
Charles Newsom
Right. So Smart Justice is a happy, healthy family and a happy, healthy family creates a happy, healthy community.

00;44;37;18 - 00;44;49;12
Paul Chapman
That's it. So I really want to hear what you think around kind of this season talking about family as it relates to child welfare and incarceration and the importance of it.

00;44;49;18 - 00;45;14;25
Charles Newsom
Man, it’s everything, because I wouldn't be who I am or where I’m at without my mother and my father rest in peace. But my mother and my grandma mean everything. So that's my stability. Whenever I feel like getting back into that Charlie Rock mode, I can go, I go. And Granny let me talk to you, let me run in and holla at you. I can go tell to my mom and my my daddy

00;45;14;25 - 00;46;00;11
Charles Newsom
I can talk to my children. I can go get my daughter and get my grandson, able to be here with them. I'm able to take... So family, it’s your rock, it’s your core. So when you’re able to have the rock and that core, you're able to think straight, you know, and that's what we want a community full of children that have parents to guide their way, to help them with this step. Because everybody's going to make a mistake growing up. And when you had those parents in there, those grandparents and uncle, you can go to, your favorite uncle or your favorite aunt, you know, it makes a lot of difference. So we want a lot of it going on in our communities were children have options.

00;46;00;29 - 00;46;10;20
Paul Chapman
Yeah you know I was kind of thinking about there’s been this study for many many decades now that Harvard's done on what makes you happy.

00;46;10;24 - 00;46;11;01
Charles Newsom
Right.

00;46;11;13 - 00;46;25;05
Paul Chapman
Of the people that they're studying they can tell best what their physical health is going to be like at 80 by looking at what their the strength of their relationships with their family and their friends at 50.

00;46;25;11 - 00;46;27;27
Charles Newsom
I can see that I can really.

00;46;27;27 - 00;46;46;08
Paul Chapman
So not their checkbook, not that that's not important. But they were looking at strength of relationship. If that person is cynical and alone at 50, they're they're not going to be as physically healthy at 80 as someone that has their kids and their grandkids and and friends and.

00;46;46;13 - 00;47;07;18
Charles Newsom
Right. Cause family just produce happiness even in the worst time. Because you know you’re going to have your ups and downs, your smiles and frowns. You got to have that. Like right now. Man, I got my granny? So guess what? I still get Sunday dinner. You know what I’m saying, you know, how many people would love to had their granny back? You know what I'm saying?

00;47;07;27 - 00;47;51;02
Charles Newsom
So that brings me joy. Just knowing I can go over on Sunday and I can just kick back with my grandma, you know what I’m saying? Eat some of that good fried chicken and collard greens and cornbread. That's a beautiful thing. That’s family. You know, when you have that, it brings about a certain balance, you know, so the Smart Justice way is to to have make sure that that child or that mother or that father, that they have the relationships we were talking about. Healthy relationships, you know, so we try to get everybody to that healthy place.

00;47;51;02 - 00;48;13;01
Charles Newsom
Thank you for joining us for season one of Smart Justice. We will return with season two in early 2023, exploring the innovative ways judges and courts are working to improve Arkansas Communities. Thank you again and may your family be blessed.

00;48;13;01 - 00;49;00;24
Ed Lowry
Thanks to our guests Danny Baker, Shanice Johnson, Courtnee Harlan, Dana Baker and Karen Phillips. And thanks to Churches for Life for sponsoring. Musical credits include “H2O” by Lee of the Stone, “Wander” by Eiloh, “Believe in Me” by Moments, “At the Heart of It” by Taiym, and “Let the Rivers Flow” by a Cast of Characters. Music is licensed through soundstripe.com. Smart justice is a work of Restore Hope. Please consider helping us produce more work like this by becoming a sponsor at www.smartjustice.com. Thank you again.