Substance Abuse's Impact on Family and Justice

Substance Abuse is a common factor in Arkansas Child Welfare and Criminal Justice cases. In this episode we interview State leaders and those with life experience with substance abuse and the justice system. There is hope.

Interviewed:
Department of Children and Family Services Mischa Martin
Arkansas Drug Director Kirk Lane
Director of Peer Recovery Services Jimmy McGill
Parole Board Chairman John Felts
Amanda and Patrick Myer
Restore Hope Director of Operations Karen Phillips
Restore Hope Executive Director Paul Chapman
Narrator Charles Newsome
Producer Renie Rule
Producer Ed Lowry

"A change of perspective is worth 80 IQ points." - Alan Kay
Through SmartJustice we explore issues from new perspectives in pursuit of better outcomes and better communities.

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https://smartjustice.supercast.com

Transcript

00;00;03;08 - 00;00;12;01
Mischa Martin
A year ago last summer I was doing an investigation, and I had to remove a baby from a mom who was using fentanyl and heroin.

00;00;13;01 - 00;00;20;22
Charles Newsom
Mischa Martin, director of Arkansas Department of Children and Family Services, discussing the devastating effects of substance abuse on the family.

00;00;21;06 - 00;01;12;21
Mischa Martin
I think she wanted to change. And frankly, in the moment when I'm removing her baby, she had very maternal instincts. Can I can I hold my baby? Can I just love on her? Absolutely. Because I'm sitting here and you're safe for the moment. Absolutely. And she held and she embraced her, and her words said that she loved her, and her actions said she loved her. There was no way I could leave that baby with her. I would go into all the circumstances. It was a very it was a very bad circumstance. But do I believe that mom wanted to change? Absolutely. But she had been addicted to heroin and fentanyl for ten plus years. She was in her late twenties. I think that addiction was stronger then her ability to change.

00;01;13;22 - 00;01;21;08
Charles Newsom
This is Season one, episode two of the Smart Justice Podcast: Substance Abuse and the Power of Addiction.

00;01;22;06 - 00;01;28;26
Paul Chapman
Crime and Punishment are hot topics. Are their solutions different than what we're hearing about at national level?

00;01;28;26 - 00;01;35;25
Andrew Baker
We led the nation in all the wrong categories, especially when it came to child welfare and recidivism. Like Why are we did last?

00;01;36;04 - 00;01;43;16
Kirk Lane
Now we're saying illicit fentanyl as the number one drug threat in our state back very closely with methamphetamine.

00;01;43;17 - 00;01;50;06
Mischa Martin
If you really want to focus on the kids, stop acting like you're going to use foster care to punish parents.

00;01;50;15 - 00;01;55;27
Paul Chapman
There is a different way to approach justice that has a better return on investment.

00;01;56;00 - 00;02;02;19
Mischa Martin
Working with families on the prevention is more cost effective than placing them in foster care.

00;02;03;01 - 00;02;11;22
Paul Chapman
That seems to strengthen both law enforcement and courts and tie that together with community resources.

00;02;11;22 - 00;02;19;13
Andrew Baker
Justice has to be served. For civil society to exist. But the place of mercy falls in the hands of the people

00;02;19;13 - 00;02;30;04
Paul Chapman
And then track the impact to communities and better outcomes. And we're calling this approach Smart Justice.

00;02;30;04 - 00;02;49;27
Ed Lowry
Smart justice is a work of Restore Hope and partner organizations. Restore Hope is a software and services organization that helps communities achieve better outcomes for justice and child welfare efforts. Smart Justice is focused on optimizing the system by improving the relationships among its parts.

00;02;51;28 - 00;03;11;06
Charles Newsom
I am Charles Newsom. This first season of Smart Justice focuses on the big issues that tear families apart. And the first issue is substance abuse. Here's Paul Chapman. Executive director of Restore Hope, Arkansas, talking to the podcast producer Ed Lowry.

00;03;11;26 - 00;03;44;13
Paul Chapman
Substance abuse is probably the most common factor in child welfare issues and incarceration or felony level crimes. Substance abuse is the factor that seems to be most prevalent in all of these issues. So I wanted to go ahead and make sure that we get a good definition of substance abuse. According to the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, SAMHSA, which is in the industry, publishes a lot of the kind of key baseline data.

00;03;44;27 - 00;04;26;17
Paul Chapman
Substance abuse disorder or SUDS occurs when the recurrent use of substances, which could include prescription drugs, illegal drugs or alcohol, causes clinically significant impairment, including health problems, disability, the failure to meet major responsibilities at work, school or home. You know, as we talk about justice, involved families and our need to respond smartly or better than we're going to have to deal with the prevalence and the commonality of substance abuse and substance use disorders.

00;04;26;21 - 00;04;33;09
Charles Newsom
We visited with Arkansas drug Director Kirk Lane for a current picture of drug abuse issues in the state.

00;04;33;14 - 00;05;00;04
Kirk Lane
We've always been a strong methamphetamine state, drug of abuse for the most part. Up until two years ago, methamphetamine was our number one overdose drug, overdose death drug in the state. Now we're seeing illicit fentanyl as the number one drug threat in our state backed very closely with methamphetamine. And we realize that illicit fentanyl is being mixed into everything, whether it be methamphetamine, cocaine, marijuana.

00;05;00;16 - 00;05;22;16
Paul Chapman
So we've been in an opioid crisis for a while now, for many years. But it really started with prescription drugs. When we made it harder to get the prescription, folks would go to heroin, which has been around for a long time. But where technology has really impacted us around the opioids is fentanyl and other synthetics like that.

00;05;22;22 - 00;05;40;08
Paul Chapman
The way that opioids work is the the feeling, the high that folks are kind of after is pretty close to not breathing any longer. So death. And so that's why we see all these overdoses. People just take too much.

00;05;40;22 - 00;06;06;09
Kirk Lane
Drug cartels are realizing synthetic drugs are cheaper to make, less intrusive by law enforcement. The amount of powder that you get in a Sweet-n-Low package is enough substance to get a thousand people high. But it's also enough substance to kill 500 people. So a little bit goes a long way when you mix just some micrograms of that into another substance.

00;06;06;15 - 00;06;43;27
Kirk Lane
You know, they're seeing illicit fentanyl mixed into liquid or into a liquid and then into an eyedropper or a nasal spray and sprayed into a drink for a date rape type drug. These fake pills that are stamped from a stamp that you can buy off eBay, that shows to be Xanax or OxyContin or Oxycodone, that actually is the fentanyl laced or fentanyl pressed onto the pill. The DEA has told us that four out of every ten pills contains enough fentanyl that can be a fatal overdose.

00;06;44;12 - 00;07;09;02
Kirk Lane
And we've had seizures of 30,000, 40,000 pills at a time in our state already. So you imagine four out of every ten that that's how many lethal doses that are out there that are being seized by law enforcement right now. The more potent a drug is, the more attractive it gets. Baltimore, Maryland, put out a warning when fentanyl first came on the scene that and they saw it on a particular street there.

00;07;09;03 - 00;07;31;00
Kirk Lane
And I don't remember what the name of the street was, but say Third Avenue or something like that. And they put out a deal about be careful about the drugs that you're getting in there. We've had several fatal overdoses, and all of a sudden the number of people that were coming down there, drug seeking it just flooded them because of that public service announcement they put out there.

00;07;31;25 - 00;07;38;15
Ed Lowry
For a dealer, having someone die from your drug is almost good marketing.

00;07;38;21 - 00;07;39;04
Kirk Lane
It is.

00;07;40;24 - 00;07;42;11
Ed Lowry
Because that tells people.

00;07;42;14 - 00;08;03;09
Kirk Lane
How potent your stuff is. And there's there's always that mindset that I can take this. I have built up my tolerance because once you... It's the first time you use a drug is the highest you're going to get off that drug. And so what happens is, is your body adjusts to that and then you're never going to get as high the second time unless you keep using more and more and more and more.

00;08;03;23 - 00;08;16;20
Kirk Lane
It's what they call chasing the dragon, always trying to get that next higher high than you been. And that's why they said, you know, you can chase the dragon for so long, but what are you going to do when you catch it?

00;08;16;20 - 00;08;44;12
Paul Chapman
So substance abuse can lead to several problems and the ability to create a healthy place in which kids can can grow up and thrive and develop. If you're impaired, if you drink too much, then your behaviors obviously are going to be impacted. And that's not necessarily the the best place to be when you're trying to help your son or daughter get through math homework.

00;08;44;12 - 00;09;12;12
Paul Chapman
Right. Or show up on time. That's also going to impact your ability to perform at work oftentimes. And as soon as it starts having impacts on your major responsibilities, all of a sudden now we're moving in according to that SAMSHA definition. Now we're moving into a disorder, right? This is different than having a glass of wine or some beers with your friends and enjoying the company and the situation.

00;09;13;11 - 00;09;21;05
Paul Chapman
Now we're starting to see these these impacts on major responsibilities in your life, and especially for children.

00;09;21;24 - 00;10;02;15
Kirk Lane
We're seeing a large amount of drug endangered children, kids that are living in homes where mom and dad or the caretaker are utilizing drugs, not caring for their kids. And a lot of our kids are suffering from neglect. Poison control has seen rises in use coming in to hospitals and and information coming in there about younger children that have come into contact with chemicals, chemicals such as marijuana or high grade marijuana that has the large THC content or illicit fentanyl and other type drugs that are around the home or mixed into things in the home that our young people are getting into.

00;10;03;05 - 00;10;34;20
Kirk Lane
So as society starts to normalize drugs and drugs become more acceptable, we need to realize that any drug use today can be a fatal experience, which means that any drug can kill you regardless of what you know about it, what you think about it, what you believe to be out there. If they mix too much fentanyl and you could be one microgram too many, and that in that substance would be the difference between life and death. And that's what we're seeing.

00;10;35;13 - 00;11;06;27
Paul Chapman
One of our responses to that through law enforcement and medical professionals was to make sure that a lot of first responders and and other social service professionals is to to use a a blocker or an inhibitor. Naloxone is one. They're some injectables now. I carry an injectable in my car that if I come across someone that I'm suspect of OD'ing, that we can try to bring them back before death.

00;11;07;05 - 00;11;24;02
Paul Chapman
And that's happening a lot now. So much so that Chief Baker in Fort Smith said that if his officers and the EMTs weren't trained and didn't have the supply, that Fort Smith couldn't handle all the funerals that are going on at the moment.

00;11;24;23 - 00;11;58;02
Kirk Lane
Families should, if their son or daughter or a loved one is is messing with drugs, they ought to learn how to have Narcan. Just like if you had matches in your house, you had to have a fire extinguisher. Narcan is a way for somebody to breathe during an opioid overdose. And as we know, they may not have an opioid addiction, but they may have an addiction, some other substance that may have illicit fentanyl mixed into it. So having that Narcan can make the difference between life and death.

00;11;58;02 - 00;12;10;04
Ed Lowry
We also hear the term addiction. Is there a difference there? And where does that line fall between someone who's abusing substances versus someone who is truly an addict? By definition.

00;12;10;20 - 00;12;43;07
Paul Chapman
Right. The way that I've heard it described by an addiction specialist doctor was that there are situations and environments in which it makes it much more likely that folks would start drinking more. Think college. Right. Or or in a depressed community where hopelessness is very high, you're much more likely to use drugs or alcohol as an escape. And you can absolutely become addicted to substances in that way.

00;12;43;23 - 00;13;04;16
Paul Chapman
But true addiction, according to this doctor and his studies occurs, there are a certain percentage of individuals who, when they have that euphoric feeling from drugs and or substances for the first time, they find the state of mind and existence that that they want to live in.

00;13;04;28 - 00;13;14;28
Charles Newsom
It is one thing to hear a doctors clinical definition of addiction. It is another to have lived the experience. For their perspective, we spoke with Jimmy McGill.

00;13;15;24 - 00;13;36;18
Jimmy McGill
Somewhere around 17, I found the drug off of my... the love of my life, which was my drug of choice. And from the second it hit me, I knew this was what I was made for. And I wanted to die knowing I tried every kind of that drug I could try. My name is Jimmy McGill. I'm a person in long term recovery from the disease of addiction.

00;13;36;29 - 00;14;10;16
Jimmy McGill
I have not used a chemical or a substance in seven and a half years. My history is pretty dark. You know, as far back as I can remember, I've been surrounded in an atmosphere of addiction and violence and I think my earliest memory of that, I can clearly visualize. I was probably five or six years old and I had to hold my dad's arm off so that he could find a good vein.

00;14;10;26 - 00;14;32;15
Jimmy McGill
And I remember knowing that if I caused it, if I moved wrong his vein would shift and it may cause him to miss that injection, in which case could result in me getting hurt. And I remember associating those two things together, right? Like be really still because if he doesn't get high, I get hurt. You know. He was a really violent person.

00;14;33;05 - 00;14;58;11
Jimmy McGill
He died from an untreated disease. And that's the thing about substance use disorder, right? Like it expresses itself in a way of isolation that makes detection and diagnosis almost unrecognizable, which makes treatment almost unrecognized. Like you can't see the need for it because of the isolation that that addiction pushes us to. And so my father was no exception to that.

00;14;58;11 - 00;15;16;20
Jimmy McGill
He was unaware that he was a person of addiction. He thought he just used because that was the life that he had. And I'm not dishonoring my dad in any way. I don't mean that any of that for that. Right. Like he was literally my best friend and in the end of his life, he was all I had.

00;15;17;00 - 00;15;37;18
Jimmy McGill
And so he just he did the best he could with what he had and what he knew. But he was a hard man to live up to. In my household what determined the level of manhood was the amount of violence that was shown. And you, right, like you accept this, you don't accept that, you never let anyone take anything.

00;15;37;18 - 00;16;08;13
Jimmy McGill
You know, you don't have to ask for permission unless you're too weak to take it. And that was the mindset that I was bred and brought up with. And that mindset led me into active gang activity. In that atmosphere of a child neglect, a thug was born. So despite all these disadvantages that I had always had these, these feelings of inadequacy and neglect and the abandonment issues, and I'd been sexually molested by a babysitter.

00;16;08;13 - 00;16;34;20
Jimmy McGill
And so and my father's in and out of incarceration. And so, you know, the streets became a disciplinarian. And I was raised by my neighborhood and the neighborhood kids and yeah. And the drug took all that that shame and embarrassment and and not feeling like I was as good as everybody else. It took it away and gave me a chance to escape the reality that I was living in.

00;16;35;29 - 00;17;10;13
Jimmy McGill
So long story short, 19 felony convictions later, in and out of incarceration, stuck in the loop of addiction, hopeless and helpless, broken, full of pain, full of an inability to accept my personal responsibility. Finally, at 38 years old, I broke. Like something in me broke, and I was found non responsive in a car with a substantial amount of illicit substance on me.

00;17;10;13 - 00;17;32;22
Jimmy McGill
And I remember thinking that my life was over as I knew it. All right. Like I'm 38 years old. I'm on my way back to prison for the sixth time. And at this point, if they let me go, I won't be too old to enjoy a normal life or I would die in prison. And those were the terms I came to accept.

00;17;33;27 - 00;17;39;10
Charles Newsom
Jimmy story illustrates the frequent iteration of substance abuse and the justice system.

00;17;39;29 - 00;18;17;20
Paul Chapman
Of those in Arkansas that we incarcerate. Substance abuse is a major factor in in the crimes, but a lot of the violent crimes is substance abuse is surrounding that. You know, if you're dealing you're trying to mark out your territory, there are threats to your business. The people that you're selling to are not necessarily... their behavior is erratic or if you're an addict, if you are truly addicted to the substance, then you are much more likely to engage in illegal activity to be able to support that habit.

00;18;18;07 - 00;18;37;06
Paul Chapman
You're probably going to start stealing from friends and family first, and then that may actually move out to businesses and breaking into houses and and so yeah, substance abuse leads to crime, which will then lead to victims and then lead to incarceration.

00;18;37;21 - 00;18;48;08
Charles Newsom
The issue of substance abuse came up when Paul spoke with John Felts, chairman of the Arkansas Parole Board, about the likelihood of released individuals returning to incarceration.

00;18;49;10 - 00;19;01;24
Paul Chapman
Can we talk a little bit about what goes into recidivism? Just your observation over, you know, 20 plus years on the parole board, you know, what are the things that are really kind of tripping folks up?

00;19;02;06 - 00;19;58;11
John Felts
The addiction issue is just such a mote around our necks, if you would. Trying to deal with regular life issues. But then in addition to that, they're dealing with an addiction which really for them, they feel like the playing field is just not fair. And front that they tend to violate other terms of their conditions of parole. The family reunification is such an important factor for me and again, specifically talking about addictions, it's just really mind boggling to see. What the drugs have done to families. I've had individuals before to tell me I can't go back home. Everybody in my family uses methamphetamine and if I go back, I'm doomed for failure.

00;19;58;11 - 00;20;00;25
Charles Newsom
Again from Kirk Lane.

00;20;01;01 - 00;20;37;22
Kirk Lane
I would say that probably 80% or more of the people that we have incarcerated have some type of drug nexus that got them there. And so I think we really need to think about how we're focused and how that law enforcement interacts with people that are on those substances or dealing with those problems, maybe reverting or converting those people to some type of drug treatment and recovery and really focus on the people that are distributing the poison that is out there, especially illicit fentanyl and holding those people responsible.

00;20;38;06 - 00;21;06;00
Kirk Lane
Up until last couple years, law enforcement, when they responded to a fatal overdose or non-fatal overdose, never investigated past the overdose. And so for once, we are now starting to investigate past overdose, trying to hold those people responsible. But interesting in the fact that we've build partnerships on an overdose response team, not only sending law enforcement, but also sending a peer recovery specialist to deal with the family and interact with the family.

00;21;06;00 - 00;21;27;12
Kirk Lane
Because a lot of times the family may be utilizing too or I say the family or the people around this victim may be using too or may be struggling with that concept. And there is nothing for families presently on a fatal overdose or counseling that is formalized in that.

00;21;28;03 - 00;21;39;08
Charles Newsom
In these comments Director Lane refers to peer support specialists. This brings us back to Jimmy McGill.

00;21;40;06 - 00;22;02;06
Jimmy McGill
I didn't understand God had a very different plan for me and it took all of that, right. And so at 38 years old, that that hopelessness was hidden. It just hit me different. And I knew that if I ever get a chance to live life again, that I would make the best of it. And here I am, 45 years old.

00;22;02;21 - 00;22;29;06
Jimmy McGill
And despite that plethora of self-imposed disadvantages, I'm a husband, a good husband, a provider with a job in government. In 2017, I became the first parolee to take a state position. And I was tasked with a very new job, a very big job. And I've not just been successful at it. God has positioned me to use that past that was so full of shame and embarrassment and stigma.

00;22;29;16 - 00;23;25;29
Jimmy McGill
It became a pathway not just for me, but for a nation of people. Currently, I'm the director of peer recovery services for the state of Arkansas, which means I develop, implement and evaluate peer recovery programs from everything from the criminal justice system to forensic peer support to the training, the certification, the emergency room programs. Anywhere you see peer recovery, it probably tied into my job some somewhere along the way. The peer program consists of... the way it works, right? Like along my... You know, I was an IV drug user for 23 years and along that way there were a whole lot of very qualified. And this is what I want to say. They were really good at their job. I'm sure that the problem was never them.

00;23;26;03 - 00;23;45;01
Jimmy McGill
It was me. And I also want to say this I was never a victim. I was a volunteer. I always knew right from wrong and I made a conscious decision to do wrong. Right. Now those decisions led me into a pathway of something I couldn't stop doing, and it became a lifestyle and it was all I knew and it was all I could do.

00;23;46;05 - 00;24;07;27
Jimmy McGill
But there were a lot of teachers, a lot of preachers, a lot of psychiatrists and a lot of therapists. There were a lot of mentors, a lot of mental health paraprofessionals, you name it. If there was a certification or a licensed person who could help me, they took a stab at it and they never got anywhere. And it wasn't on them.

00;24;08;06 - 00;24;49;17
Jimmy McGill
It was on me. I never gave them a chance. I immediately shut down. And the reason for that was I was afraid that if I was honest with you, you would judge me, right? There's the shame and stigma of all the wrong that I've been doing for decades. The way peer recovery really works is when another person in recovery... See, I can sit down with somebody who's shot dope for 20 years and say, Hey, I get it, I've been there too. I'm a Hep C survivor too. There's nothing you've been through that I haven't been through, if not worse. And instantly that fear of being judged is removed. You're no longer worried about if I'm going to be condescending towards you.

00;24;50;02 - 00;25;10;17
Jimmy McGill
And so in a matter of seconds, another person in recovery had accomplished what what clinical people had been trying to accomplish for decades. They broke through that wall of hardened exterior like it was nothing, just by sharing their lived experience with me, it empowered me. And I knew it was real. Right. That's that's the key. It was authentic.

00;25;11;05 - 00;25;36;19
Jimmy McGill
I knew that what he had just told me was 100% the truth because I had lived it. I knew it. He spoke a language that only I would understand. That's the nature of peer support. So when we train someone and we put these qualifications, so you got to be two years clean, right? Abstinence based on recovery, unless you're on MAT there is an MAT waiver which is medically assisted treatment.

00;25;37;04 - 00;25;55;02
Jimmy McGill
Now that means I haven't smoked in a marijuana. I haven't taken any pills. I haven't had one drink of alcohol, not in over two years. Right. And so once I meet that requirement, then I can go through a week long training. Once I get trained, I've got 500 hours of supervision, I've got to go under and then I can take the state exam.

00;25;55;18 - 00;26;20;16
Jimmy McGill
And then 100 of those hours out of that 500 is very domain specific recovery and wellness, ethics, responsibility, mentorship and education. Right? These 25 hours, I have to get under each one of these domains and then I have to receive supervision from a seasoned peer recovery supervisor, someone who does what we do specific to the field we're in and nothing but that.

00;26;20;27 - 00;26;44;03
Kirk Lane
The state's put a lot of effort into that peer recovery model, training, people with lived experience, different models all the way across the board from a basic advanced and now a supervision model. When somebody goes through a class, they're required to do 500 hours of voluntary service or what we say they can actually go to work somewhere and do that 500 hours.

00;26;44;03 - 00;27;24;07
Kirk Lane
And after that 500 hours and that criteria is met that they can test for their national certification. And then once that completed and they successfully pass that, then they can move to the next level. We've trained 400 plus peer recovery specialists in the state to date since it really got formalized. Then about 2019 over 200 of have received their national credentialing in one level or another, and then they can go to work at a treatment location, they can go to work at a hospital, they can go to work at different employment. We're getting a lot of calls from employers wanting peers hired to help.

00;27;24;07 - 00;27;38;10
Kirk Lane
Working on a mindset right now to put a peer recovery specialist in every drug court in the state. And it makes perfect sense. You know, to have somebody there that has been through the fire that can lead people through the fire.

00;27;38;24 - 00;28;30;25
Jimmy McGill
Yeah. So the primary purpose of a peer is to support and so they use that lived experience to help people navigate a very complicated system that they've already successfully navigated. You may be reentering society and need food stamps and driver's license and you don't know who to contact or call. So I do because I've already been through that and I'm trained. The same way I hustled the streets in addiction. I know who to call in the system to get you what you need. If you need a 31 day bus pass, I know who to call in all 75 counties to get you that you may be reentering society from drug treatment. You got 30 days substance free and society expects you to know how to navigate that system with a brain that is not functioning to capacity because you've been clouding it with drug use.

00;28;31;18 - 00;28;43;02
Jimmy McGill
Now, the system is already complicated and complex, and we want you who can't think clearly to float your way through this. And that's where peer support comes in.

00;28;43;13 - 00;28;49;21
Charles Newsom
The need for peer support brings us back to Misha Martin's story of the mother whose addiction separated her from her children.

00;28;49;25 - 00;29;11;17
Mischa Martin
Even if she got clean and I'm and I'm not being critical of systems. But but it wasn't just facing a heroin addiction. She faced a long list of either pending charges or prior convictions that would make it almost impossible for her to get a job. She had a long list of fines that she had to pay off.

00;29;11;17 - 00;29;51;07
Mischa Martin
She had no money for rent. She had no money. She she had no money for really buying groceries. These are not things that just can be fixed overnight. So even if she got clean and even if she could make it through substance abuse treatment, she knew that she had created ten years of a path that was going to make just it was going to take more than just getting clean to be able to get back to stability, not only for herself, but then think about 2, the 3 kids, three kids that she would have had to try and navigate taking care of, too.

00;29;51;07 - 00;30;18;29
Mischa Martin
I mean, I can't hardly even even fathom that mountain that she had to climb. That was step one was just getting clean. Then the mountain was still there of how do I get up this mountain and to stability is huge. It's overwhelming for me to even think about, and I don't have a fix for it. I'm just saying I have empathy for what she was doing to face to get back to stability.

00;30;19;07 - 00;30;55;00
Mischa Martin
She did create that path on her own. But as a society, just continuing to be like, well, that's your fault and that's it. Like, Well, that's not going to help our our community either, because now we have three kids that are traumatized that have gone through a ton and that the state is paying for. So does that continue the attitude of, well, that's your fault and you created that path doesn't really get us anywhere to a to her being stronger to being an active member of society. And ultimately, that's what we want, right? We want people to be an active member of society.

00;30;56;04 - 00;31;16;15
Jimmy McGill
And now you look at Misty and Misty and who who works for me at DHS. And she's she's our peer recovery training coordinator. She's been in the system. She lost her children to the system. Her vision is to take that lived experience, knowing that that she can't have her babies back, but she can be there for parents who are going through what she went through.

00;31;17;12 - 00;31;47;17
Jimmy McGill
That's the beauty of lived experience. Right. And it's as old as mankind. Veterans, they have support groups. People who are suicidal have support groups, doctors share with other doctors. Law enforcement have law enforcement. Peer support has always been there. Arkansas is the national leader for Recovery Support Services, and that was because we had a state drug director who challenged the status quo, right?

00;31;47;18 - 00;32;14;07
Jimmy McGill
Kirk Lane said, listen, what we're doing is not working. The recidivism rate is 56%. Addictions at an all time high, overdose is at an all time high. What we're doing doesn't work. If it did, we wouldn't be in this mess. And he challenged society and the government and he went to the governor and the governor signed off on my background being on parole with such a criminal history.

00;32;14;07 - 00;32;35;23
Jimmy McGill
They took a huge risk on me and we changed the face of a nation. How do we take the relationship between Jimmy McGill and Kirk Lane and replicate? See, the missing piece that we haven't talked about is Kirk Lane was my arresting officer and put me in prison in and he was also the man who hired me right to do what I do.

00;32;36;26 - 00;32;57;04
Jimmy McGill
So when it came time for me to share my recovery, he knew better than anybody that my recovery was real and it was authentic. This guy who once put the handcuffs on me, my nemesis by nature, was now my biggest champion and fighting for me to have a position in a system that is broken.

00;32;57;07 - 00;33;17;14
Kirk Lane
I think most importantly to me is when we started this program, the law enforcement side said, I don't know if I really want to be around a peer. Do we really need to have them as part of this grant? The peers were a little uncomfortable about being around the law enforcement, but now you can't separate them and they see the value and they've learned from each other.

00;33;17;14 - 00;33;43;15
Kirk Lane
Law enforcement's got a good concept now of what addiction or a substance use disorder is all about. They have a better mindset to it. They're more open to saying, Hey, this is a person that really needs to be going to treatment instead of to jail, and they're leading that way and then really focusing their attention and their efforts on the dealer who's spreading the poison and holding them accountable.

00;33;44;01 - 00;34;12;15
Kirk Lane
Where the other side is, is that peer recovery specialist is working with the family to try to get them the love and support in the in the needs that they have in there. And it's really generating some good response and some communication. The peer also works in the community trying to destigmatize drug addiction or substance use disorder in there and really educating not only the department but the community also. So we're pretty proud of this project that we have moving forward.

00;34;13;04 - 00;34;35;02
Jimmy McGill
And so we reach and get people who are reentering society and we watch them and elevate to a position of status instead of recidivate. And we've got the data to prove it and it's legit numbers. It's not make believe. Like we can put the body to the number and produce the proof.

00;34;35;03 - 00;35;06;17
Kirk Lane
And I'll give you an example of one up in North Arkansas in Izard county. It's a multi-county task force. They have two investigators and they have two peer recovery specialists. They respond to an overdose together. In the last year, they have arrested and indicted in federal indictment, six people involved with around two deaths. But they've also led over 60 people to treatment and recovery at the same time, working as a partnership.

00;35;07;05 - 00;35;22;12
Jimmy McGill
Men and women that society said would always be nothing are now champions and the same neighborhoods that condemned them are depending on them. And that's the beauty of this thing.

00;35;22;12 - 00;36;03;23
Paul Chapman
I'm so excited that we've adopted and have rolled out with Kirk Lane kind of leading the way and then Jimmy McGill being the head of the peer support program here in Arkansas. But a peer is someone who has lived experience. I'd say, you know, we as a people need to really work on on the demand side. Let's try to prevent first use and if use starts to occur, we need to have interventions and at every point. You're going to know when folks start to decline, they're going to wind up in District court, if not in felony court and in jail.

00;36;04;28 - 00;36;41;19
Paul Chapman
And so have these interventions early on so that the journey out of the hole isn't as great, but that offers of help occur at any level. If someone wants help, that's when we should have the services that exist in all of our communities should be ready to step in and help someone and encourage them along that journey. And I'd say here in Arkansas, we've got several communities actually that have created a a fully connected pathway all the way to career.

00;36;42;00 - 00;37;13;29
Paul Chapman
It's not a straight line, but they keep on the pathway to career because we have the appropriate coaches in their lives that are helping them realize that that they can go forward and then helping them find out what that pathway might be. We have an employee who, their children were taken into foster care a number of years ago and they became a client of ours. That was really due to substance abuse from methamphetamine and other things.

00;37;14;13 - 00;37;16;12
Charles Newsom
Amanda and Patrick Myer.

00;37;16;18 - 00;37;44;24
Amanda Myer
Yes, I moved to Fort Smith in August of 2018 and didn't know anybody. We had started using meth and in July of 2019 our kids were taken by DHS after an argument one night and the cops being called. We were high. And so they had to take the children since we're going to jail.

00;37;44;24 - 00;38;11;11
Patrick Myer
When they first came, they had her upstairs and they had me in the cop car alone and a DHS lady came walking by with the kids and it was just right then, I don't know. I just had a you know, I realized my decisions, you know, because they weren't mistakes. They were all decisions, you know. And I knew it was bad, you know, and I was just seeing my kids.

00;38;11;18 - 00;38;24;06
Patrick Myer
They've been doing my decisions for a while, but I finally seen them deal with, like, extreme, like because now they're paying the price. You know, my daughter's scared. She don't know what's going on. And that's what it was like. It was time.

00;38;24;13 - 00;38;41;08
Amanda Myer
And when we got out of jail, we were calling DHS and we didn't have a caseworker assigned yet or anything like that. It was just the worker that was on call that night, so she left her card and I was like, I don't know what to do, but tell me something to do. Like, how do we get started?

00;38;41;27 - 00;38;55;16
Amanda Myer
And so she told us to start with parenting classes. So we called Steps and got signed up in the parenting class before we had court or anything. And that's where we heard about 100 families.

00;38;55;16 - 00;40;09;29
Karen Phillips
Hi, Karen Phillips and I direct the 100 Families Initiative for Restore Hope, and I also direct operations. When we first started, 100 Families, we wanted to provide supports with families to families that had DCF cases. So either their children had been placed in care or they had a protective services case where the the children were still in the home, but they needed additional support in order to keep their children safe. I met Patrick and Amanda at the Arkansas Community Corrections Building where I office as a 100 families case manager. I immediately really felt a bond with both of them and I will never forget Patrick and particularly he just broke down into tears, that very first appointment, and he just admitted, he said, we messed up, you know, and now our children are suffering because we made a decision.

00;40;10;21 - 00;40;31;18
Karen Phillips
I remember them saying, we will do whatever it takes. They were, you know, one of the few that kind of immediately realize how wrong they were and immediately want to change. And and it was a bumpy ride.

00;40;31;18 - 00;41;10;28
Amanda Myer
We didn't know what our next step was. We were trying to fight, you know, urges to use. And then that in that moment, that's when you want to use the most. When you're in that situation and it feels like everything's falling apart. So of course, that's what we want to turn to. But if you do, it's just going to make it worse. I think from start to end our case was about six months long, but then afterwards, you know, we had to deal with I mean, we're still drug addicts. We still had to deal with that. And then.

00;41;10;29 - 00;41;12;23
Patrick Myer
I mean we still deal with it today.

00;41;12;29 - 00;41;15;10
Amanda Myer
Yeah, it's something that.

00;41;16;23 - 00;41;27;02
Patrick Myer
At first I don't know. At first it's a scream, you know, and then after a while you just ignore it and after a while just becomes just a sometimes just a quiet thought.

00;41;27;02 - 00;41;39;19
Amanda Myer
I think for me, just looking back at all that we had to go through and how hard it was and to think about doing that again and what the kids had gone through.

00;41;40;03 - 00;42;38;13
Karen Phillips
They did end up relapsing at one point. And that was just such a hard time. But addiction is is such a strong evil. And and it and it comes back multiple times and, you know, statistics show that it takes, you know, several times to fully recover. You know, and that, you know, recovery is a lifelong process. And all these things. But thankfully, they started back out at ground zero. I mean, they had to go to a homeless shelter at that time. They lost their housing we'd helped them to get it was like starting all over again. And they were and so they did. They did everything that was asked of them. You know, once again, they they persevered and really, you know, just worked hard, you know, got employment.

00;42;38;18 - 00;43;09;07
Paul Chapman
They went on a journey fixing those things, taking care of the kind of the consequences. Suspended driver's license, no work, that kind of thing. Got their kids back in their home. There were issues that they had to address from their children, trauma of their being out of the home and now back in. And and then she came on as a case manager for us. But as a peer.

00;43;09;14 - 00;43;35;19
Karen Phillips
Amanda was going to beauty school. She had been, you know, clean a good while now. Everything was going well. And I just said, how do you like how do you like beauty school? Oh, I hate it. I'm not cut out for this. This isn't what I want to do with my life. I was like, oh, you know what? You'd be a great case manager, thankfully, you know, Paul, you know, interviewed her and agreed and.

00;43;36;05 - 00;43;56;07
Paul Chapman
And now goes into a juvenile court in partnership with that judge. And that that court, as clients, just like she was many years ago, are in the same situation. And in the first two months that she was on the job, she doubled the client load in that particular county.

00;43;56;11 - 00;44;19;17
Karen Phillips
You know, coming from the place where she's been and all that she's been through, she takes all of that and and puts it into every single life that she touches and and helps. And she just helps get reunited, helps get into housing, helps get into, you know, get into recovery. All those life lessons that she's learned the hard way.

00;44;19;25 - 00;44;35;01
Paul Chapman
Because she could go to someone in a way that you or I couldn't. Yeah. And say it looks like you're in a really dark hole and I'm so sorry. I've been in that exact hole. You want some help? Because I got out. I know the way out.

00;44;35;15 - 00;45;10;13
Amanda Myer
You know, it's it's not always the easiest thing to do to put yourself in somebody else's shoes. But I would be willing to bet that all of these parents love their kids. They just have some demons that are bigger. And sometimes it takes a lot of work. There's a lot of things that they haven't dealt with. But to have the families reunited and the children get to come home to their parents that love them is all worth it, and those parents need that help and they just they don't know what to do.

00;45;11;09 - 00;45;43;10
Paul Chapman
And then she can bring that individual, build a relationship with the person that was in the exact same situation and help them start putting a plan together to reunite their families or preserve their families. If it hadn't gotten that far and get substance abuse treatment, get into housing, get into a jobs program and be able to get stable enough that they start to make a relapse much less likely.

00;45;44;00 - 00;46;28;14
Amanda Myer
Yes, I have had some clients get reunited with their kids. It's really great. I cry every time, even if they're not my clients. I go to the DCFS court on Wednesday, so even if they're not mine, I cry and it's just to be in that environment and feel those emotions that I know that I felt before, and even ones, you know, that didn't end up the way ours did. Like families that get the rights terminated just to know that you've been in that situation and that could have been you, too. It's definitely, it's overwhelming, but it's a great to get to be there for those families.

00;46;28;14 - 00;46;58;13
Paul Chapman
There's a TED Talk that became quite popular, so it went viral a number of years ago, and the quote that came out of that talk was, "The opposite of addiction isn't sobriety or abstinence, it's connection." And so the individual, the author kind of wrote about the study that was done where substances were offered to narcotics were offered to rats.

00;46;58;13 - 00;47;30;28
Paul Chapman
And if they were isolated, I mean, they'd descend, fall into the addiction process. But if you had kind of this community where they had relation with each other and they could play and work and do these things, then even though the narcotics were offered, you know, they just didn't descend into addiction. They chose not to use. Which then goes back into, I think, what the hospitals and the medical staff have realized is the social determinants of health.

00;47;31;26 - 00;48;02;11
Paul Chapman
And so if things are good at home and you feel like you have deep relationships with both family and friends, if you have a meaning, a transcendent, a meaning bigger than you, you're working on a cause. You feel like you're you at work or playing an appropriate role. Your work matters. Then the likelihood that you're going to be susceptible to substance abuse is greatly diminished.

00;48;03;18 - 00;48;32;22
Jimmy McGill
Drug addiction destroys relationships. We become a whirlwind, and it becomes, like I said, it's a disease of isolation. It expresses itself in isolation, which makes diagnosis and treatment and detection almost impossible. Regardless of your pathway to recovery. One of the things that you have always got to have is community, right, like community, health, home and purpose. Those are the four elements of recovery.

00;48;33;03 - 00;49;11;00
Jimmy McGill
And regardless if you have a church based platform for recovery, 12 step, CrossFit, natural recovery, smart recovery, it doesn't matter. You can be a part of a bicycle community. If you practice your pathway daily, you have a purpose and you have a community that wants to see you strive and live, clean and you've got a healthy home and your health, mental health is right, then you can sustain recovery. So health, home, purpose and community. Community to me being the most important, second being purpose.

00;49;11;13 - 00;50;07;29
Kirk Lane
I think I find hope in the families. The families that are learning, the families that are coming together. There's a lot of different programs that are out there. I find hope in the in the the win of recovery and listening to people that have recovered that are now becoming those strong spokesmen and advocates. I look at those and those families that are now stepping up that may have lost or have won, you know, with their child, however old that child is, you know, a lot of times they are talking about their children and they're 20 or 30 years of age, but they're still with them. They're still giving them the chance instead of isolating them. That to me, is the win win that I see. And then I think thirdly, I think there are young people that are stepping up now and becoming role models, especially those that are trying to educate their families in their communities. Because when I talk to those children, why are you doing this?

00;50;07;29 - 00;51;05;24
Kirk Lane
And there are a lot of saying that they may have tried it or they didn't choose to try it because... \When I went to high school, nobody died of a drug overdose in the late seventies. But now most kids I talk to know five or six and they don't want that anymore and they don't see that. We're even seeing that in the education of doctors. When we have that over prescribing problem, which we still do. But a lot of our younger doctors and medical professionals grew up in a society that they saw a lot of overdoses. And so now they're trying to educate them to be more efficient and use the tools that are there and develop tools to get them to prescribe smarter, to get them to understand when somebody comes in and has an addiction, instead of running them out of their doctor's office, they're now encouraging them to come in and helping them by giving them tools about treatment and recovery that they they never utilized before.

00;51;06;28 - 00;51;55;24
Jimmy McGill
So the more we talk about recovery, the more we normalize it and the more we talk about addiction, the more we humanize it. Right. And so friends and allies of recovery, it's not us versus them. It's us versus the stigma. And when I say us, I mean the advocates who believe in us. I think about my wife's mother. My mother in law. Every time one of us has a recovery celebration or we have this big accomplishment or achievement, her mother will post a picture of us and hashtag it #theydorecover. Yeah. I didn't mean to get all emotional right there. But like, you know, that's a beautiful thing to to see other people fight for us because addiction doesn't just affect the person using.

00;51;56;03 - 00;52;29;11
Jimmy McGill
It affects everybody. It affects the community. It affects the family. It affects the criminal justice system. It affects everything. And, you know, I think education is the key, right? The more we speak, the louder we get, the more lives we save. That could be lives from the person using or it could be lives that this stigma is trying to kill.

00;52;29;11 - 00;52;55;09
Charles Newsom
If you or someone you love is struggling with substance abuse, do not isolate, there are resources available. Reach out. You might find a new way to live. Thank you for joining this episode of Smart Justice. Join us next week as we consider the impact and possible new approaches to the issues of incarceration.

00;52;56;09 - 00;53;42;03
Ed Lowry
Special thanks to this episode's guests Misha Martin, Kirk Lane, John Felts, Jimmy McGill, Amanda and Patrick Myer, and Karen Phillips. Thanks also to Churches for Life for sponsoring. Music credits include "H2O" by Lee of the Stone, "Lonely Company" by Anthony Cattacoli, "At the heart of it" by Taiym, "Through The Looking Glass" by Moments, and "Silver Horizon" by Ariel Red. Music was licensed through soundstripe.com. Smart Justice is a work of Restore Hope. Please consider helping us produce more work like this by becoming a donor at www.smartjustice.org. Thanks again.